There is something very, very wrong with some aspects Japanese culture. We've all heard the stories of women being secondary in their country, even going as far as having the myth of the submissive geisha girl making its way into our country (maybe as the first story of Japan we had ever heard as children) and becoming the masturbatory aid for a generation of internet geeks. So it should be no surprise that many American males have a thing for Asian women. Who wouldn't want a cute, little 18-year-old in a schoolgirl outfit waiting on your every sexual need?
Let me preface this with the following: gender roles are a tricky thing on the men's side of things. I constantly have porn forwarded to me from male acquaintances, and I grin and bear it out of fear of being labeled a fag, keeping up a macho facade. I've never really understood the appeal of porn. Sex is a private matter between consenting adults and I always feel like they're trivializing that, and that I'm intruding on a personal moment.
So a few weeks ago, one of the biggest perpetrators of this mass porn forwarding sent me something that I reacted to at first with confusion, then disgust, then disbelief. Apparently, there is a series of videos available in Japan that someone saw fit to import to America. The videos cover an assortment of topics, produced by an assortment of companies, from an assortment of different medias. Each tackles a certain fetish and use Japanese women as the targets. Here are a few of the more head-scratching examples, with the actual descriptions from the site (keep in mind that some of the videos are staged and the featured people are actors, but the ones I am listing below are real men doing real things to real men; and fair warning, these are quite perverse):
Skirt Ripping and Stealing (A Four-Part Series)
Well, in [previous videos], at least the ladies clothes are still usable after the attack. In this video, the skirts are quit literally ripped off of 31 ladies, leaving them standing in the street with only panties from the waist down (a wonderful fashion trend in my view!). The world is a scary place when you don't have a skirt or pants to wear! For fans of this genre, this is an excellent video. Highly recommended!
Baggings
I often give thanks that there are strict gun control laws in Japan - for if the women ever armed themselves, it would be curtains for these guys. In this video, 33 women are "bagged" - that is, they are wearing either long skirts or one piece dresses and some guy sneaks up behind them, lifts the dress from its hem up and over her head and tries to fasten it there, leaving the women both totally helpless and totally exposed! There is a certain elegance to a woman walking down the street in a long skirt - it definitely feels as if they are self assured - extremely confident and then suddenly, everyone can see the panties and bras that they decided to wear that day and they are helpless from stopping the great views. None of the women take the obvious step of taking the garment off, fixing it then putting it back on - choosing instead to struggle for our pleasure. All of the baggings take place outdoors in fairly public places. A truly outstanding video!
There was one other I wanted to bring up, but I won't post the entire description because it's really just heinous, but the gist of it is they take an athletic woman, put her up against several athletic men, and have fights. If she can last a full ten minutes against the men without giving up or being pinned, then she is free to go and wins a prize. If they lose, the men get to molest her. All of them. At once.
So basically, the Japanese are using sexual assault and humiliation as a means of not just entertainment, but for pornography, as well. And not just simulated sexual assault. But full-blown, man taking advantage of women assault. Of course, the faces of the men are blurred in the videos as to protect their identities, lest they face public embarrassment.
I know that American cinema uses female embarrassment for humor very often in goofy teen comedies, but I have never heard of a modernized culture thinking so low of women and caring so little of their decency as to actually use Candid Camera-style filmmaking to take advantage of them, then release it for horny, lonely people to get off on. I really can't wrap my brain around anyone who would think this is a good idea, but maybe a more insidious thought would be the fact that there seems to be a big market for these videos and that this particular site is doing really well.
I did my best to find anything about laws regarding sexual assault in Japan, but in my searches, I unsurprisingly came across a plethora of hentai and bukakke sites. So I got pretty frustrated and gave up. But my guess is that that kind of public assault is strictly outlawed like it is here. These guys are just really good at not getting caught.
There you have it. Japanese men are victimizing these poor Japanese women under the pretense of pornography so Americans can live vicariously through them and watch something that I'm sure many wish they were able to do. I will never complain about American porn ever again.
NOTE: I am not implying that these Japanese men are committing these offenses because of their ethnicity, but because of the patriarchy that exists in that country, as well. I apologize for any insensitivity that may have been perceived.
Sunday, May 4, 2008
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77 comments:
While I was in Japan, I did a cross cultural examination of Pornography, sexual assault, and obscenity law, this was an excellent source: http://www.hawaii.edu/aplpj/pdfs/v4-06-Alexander.pdf
Also, I'll have to offer that our notions of "submissive" Asian women and geishas have more to do with Orientalization than truth. Just ask the Japanese men who now find themselves unable to get wives as women are choosing to stay single and delay childbearing in much the same fashion as American women.
The premise for the pornography as you've described it is disturbing, and if the women have not consented, it's videotaped sexual assault. Much like voyeur pornography which gained increased popularity a few years ago--the laws in the US are exceedingly lax in regards to right to privacy in public as well. So, I'm not surprised that American consumers are going for this sort of thing.
I understand the idea behind this post, but there are some seriously troubling orientalism displayed within it, "even going as far as having the myth of the submissive geisha girl leaking into our fair land". Something that were it American in origin would be attributed to the patriarchy is here attributed to ethnicity. I can't get down with that.
Something that were it American in origin would be attributed to the patriarchy is here attributed to ethnicity. I can't get down with that.
I see what your saying, and the only reason I brought up the whole geisha thing is because it is part of a patriarchy, just not an American one. I wasn't inferring that it's because they're Japanese. Sorry if it came across as such. And it seems that the patriarchy here is taking a shine to the one from Japan.
Western patriarchy is actually older, so if anything, they're a taking a shine to ours (off the top of my head, I'm reminded of how co-ed hot spring visits were banned after WWII and the occupation). The geisha thing isn't really clear cut, it's actually difficult to place them in the patriarchy because according to the culture at the time wherein they rose to prominence, they shouldn't have really existed--educated women, trained in the arts (at the same time, living to please men) when in fact the first manifestation of geisha was male.
The myth of the submissive geisha seems to have gotten out of control, though. The first thing most American males think of when they hear the word has to do with what I had described above. I know that's not what geishas actually were, but somehow it was twisted into that.
Well the submissive Asian woman myth isn't limited to geishas, but it's a rather racist interpretation of another culture. I think that's what these porns are getting at--the helpless Asian woman because clearly, that's how they all are. So we've got a nice intersection of sexism, and racial stereotyping that come together to make something really disturbing.
Well the submissive Asian woman myth isn't limited to geishas, but it's a rather racist interpretation of another culture. I think that's what these porns are getting at--the helpless Asian woman because clearly, that's how they all are. So we've got a nice intersection of sexism, and racial stereotyping that come together to make something really disturbing.
It's certainly worth mentioning the racial implications of it. I have to wonder though, if these videos were initially intended for Japanese audiences (I'm sure they knew they would come to America eventually), what does that say about their media and entertainment?
It's certainly worth mentioning the racial implications of it. I have to wonder though, if these videos were initially intended for Japanese audiences (I'm sure they knew they would come to America eventually), what does that say about their media and entertainment?
I have no idea whether or not they intended them for an American audience, so I can't speak on it. But--their porn is just as overexaggerated as American porn. While it is symptomatic of some prevailing thought, it's not entirely unfamiliar. The helpless female is a staple in Western porn, so is non consent. I wouldn't take it as a reliable comment on general interpersonal relationships in Japan, even directly asking someone you like out is a bit too forward in most cases.
The racial component is pretty obvious in the marketing of it to American audiences--I mean the site you linked to says "Videos from the Orient." My fear is that this sort of stereotyping makes people think this sort of thing is normal for Japan--but people want to think that, just like with Geisha. I mean it isn't puzzling to me why men are really willing to believe that geisha are prostitutes--westerners don't have a referent for women who entertain men with conversation and art, and nothing else. A lot of it is the imposition of our own cultural norms on our understanding of other cultures that makes for these stereotypes.
It is true. Anything that is even remotely different from our culture always gets blown out of proportion.
I do understand that these themes are seen in American porn, as well. It just seems more prevalent in everything I've seen from Asia. Never mind the fact that they're taking unwilling participants and suddenly throwing them into this. I've seen some of it in Europe as well, but it just seems like it hasn't been attempted, thank god, in America yet. These videos are definitely playing on Western ideas of Asian culture, regardless of whether or not it was intentional. It only further exacerbates the ignorance over Asian culture and media. I would hope that most people have the common sense to see that this isn't the norm in Japan, but I do have to wonder.
I just read through these comments and I must say I was...surprised (how sad!) to see such a productive, civil discourse taking place on this blog. :)
Ah. Thanks guys. Reading your comments made me smile.
"I do understand that these themes are seen in American porn, as well. It just seems more prevalent in everything I've seen from Asia."
Well you've got to factor in the distribution--that website seems dedicated to "the orient" and stuff that's supposedly better than what they show here. In my younger days I took in a lot of hentai manga and movies, that didn't have these sorts of themes. So just like here, there's different themes/fetishes/whatever that get emphasized in the advertisements, depending on where you look.
"I just read through these comments and I must say I was...surprised (how sad!) to see such a productive, civil discourse taking place on this blog. :)"
If you build it they will come! Don't let the trolls convince you that they're all that's out there, or the only ones reading your blog. Maybe you have a lot of shy civil people.
Maybe more of it does have to do with the marketing. Through all this, I think it's become fairly obvious that this kind of stuff is being marketed to Americans under the pretense of the image of the helpless Japanese girl. I mean, there's plenty of "normal" porn out there, but most of what makes it to America is the weird stuff.
I just read through these comments and I must say I was...surprised (how sad!) to see such a productive, civil discourse taking place on this blog. :)
Ah. Thanks guys. Reading your comments made me smile.
And not a moment too soon.
Great post Ryan.
However, we do have to keep in mind that porn, regardless of nationality, generally displays the most vile forms of sexism and misogyny. Our version of naughty school girl and gang rape is not much different than the disgusting porn videos you speak of.
However, what does strike me as shocking is the degree of realism that these Japanese porn films depict. Mainstream American porn is usually fake, and laughably so. It does seem like the sexualization of assault, especially common types thereof.
The sickest thing about the existance of such porn is that there is a considerable demand for it. These is yet another post I could show as a series in why I hate porn.
On that note, I'm infinitely glad that someone in this crazy world actually does not like porn as much as I do.
Hey guys! I just read through the comments and thought I'd add my two cents too. I agree with all of you that the issue of racial stereotypes is a huge factor in the marketing of a video like this in America, however, I wonder if it’s true that videos like this don’t exist in America too? The first thing I thought of when I read the description of this video was the Bum Fights series (which I believe is American), where a team of terrible human beings goes around and films homeless people beating the snot out of each other in exchange for alcohol and cigarettes. I realize that it’s not exactly porn, but it’s technically illegal and definitely similarly spontaneous, exploitative, and a violation of individual rights. I’m not sure if there are American “porn” films like this, but I wouldn’t be surprised even given our litigious age—especially considering the black market demand for porn. (Incidentally, I wonder if the Japanese video isn’t being distributed on the black market?) Also, I am reminded both of the recent story making its way around the blogosphere about the comedian who sexually assaulted a woman on stage (which many are dismissing as a joke or entertainment), and the fact that in most public places in the U.S. it’s perfectly legal to hold a camera under someone’s skirt and take a picture or video. I wonder if there are some perverted American voyeurs who have taken videos up women’s skirts and made a montage? :-/
I’m not saying Japanese patriarchy isn’t a factor, because it clearly is. But there has actually been a lot of progress in terms of new legislation and enforcement of laws that protect women’s rights in cases like this. In the last ten years the Japanese feminist movement has broken the silence on taboo subjects like domestic violence, sexual assault in public, and unfair marriage laws. The first sweeping legislation protecting women and children from abusive spouses was passed in 2006. I remember when I was in Japan last year there was the case of a woman who was raped on a train car crowded with 40 people who sat by and did nothing as she screamed for help. The media spent weeks covering it, and the reaction of most people was, not surprisingly, shock and horror. Likely, if this were the 1980s, a story like that would not have made headlines, but now the harm caused by the silences imposed by the patriarchy is not being overlooked. The declining birthrate, which is the most serious problem facing Japanese society today, is largely a result of women simply choosing to remain single because the marriage laws and expectations of wifehood have not kept up with the way most Japanese women see themselves—as members of society equal to men. Japan is being forced to analyze itself and its patriarchal constructs, and that spells good news for Japanese women.
I know I’ve gone a little off topic here, but I always have to add a bit about Japanese feminism when I see stories like this, since Japanese women are so frequently made out to be victims in Western media, when they are doing so much to change the direction of their society. Thoughts anyone?
(P.S. Civil conversation? In my Internet? It’s more likely than you think… )
I'm glad to see you on the blog, Ryan, and I appreciate your candidness. But I think it would be cool if you'd try to fight gender roles instead of just telling fellow feminists that you don't like them and letting the guys think you do. I don't mean to come off too harsh, and for all I know you talk about this stuff with your close friends and just know better than to start up with acquaintances. I tend to do things that way. But the macho facade thing just kind of bothered me, because you have power, as a male, to help feminism in ways that I just can't. I know you'd be putting yourself at risk, but other people (actual "fags", for instance) are already at risk, and that's not going to change if we all pretend to be ok with it. It's something I need to work on, too, like when my family says things that are subtly racist and I keep quiet because that would be a really difficult, uncomfortable argument. But if I won't speak up, who will, you know?
That said, you may know that there is a lot of controversy among feminists over whether porn is ok or not. I think we're all against this kind, but my point is, you don't have to denounce all porn to be feminist (depending on the kind you are).
Judgesnineteen,
While I understand where you're coming from on this with regard to Ryan's position, I think there is possibly a misunderstanding going on here. Male feminists have a whole different set of issues to deal with when it comes to resisting patriarchy than female feminists. The risk of being labeled a "fag" is one with serious implications. Outcrazyophelia and I actually had a conversation with a mutual friend the other day about the dangers of being gay around the typical American male. He genuinely fears for his safety when he is around other guys who he might not know all that well, or don't know he's gay.
Any male that challenges heteronormative masculinity with non-normative alternatives like homosexuality (or in Ryan’s case, feminism) is at risk of being ostracized or worse. I think Ryan is being safe and smart by hesitating to outright denounce gender roles in front of his peers. And if you think about it this way, what positive effect can he have on people who won’t take him seriously? If he plays the game a bit, at least there is a chance he can change his friends over time. Overtness has its place, but sometimes subtlety is the key.
I also don’t think it’s our place to judge others on where they are in terms of their evolution as a feminist (this is not to say that your concerns are not valid, because they are). But no one becomes a feminist overnight. For example, until 4 years ago, as a result of being socialized almost entirely around males growing up, I literally was saying things like “Feminism is for pussies” and “Bitches should suck it up.” For serious. (It’s amazing how a degree in English changes thing, eh? ^_^) Additionally, for those who are in the position of privilege, transformation can be very difficult. When I started becoming seriously interested in anti-racist activism that meant that, before I could make any difference at all, I had to acknowledge that, as a white person complicit in the system, I was part of the problem. Not a quick and painless experience. Male feminists also have that dilemma. It’s easy to point the finger elsewhere, but when you need to look inward, that can take lots of time and introspection.
And then, once you reach that point, there are yet more hurdles. I can honestly say that if I was in a room with a few of my male friends, I would be really hesitant to call them out on their misogyny—I would be A) afraid of hurting their feelings and B) afraid that I would be laughed at and get frustrated. It can be very difficult to confront people over these issues, especially your own peers. I like to think that the next time my uncle who I love and respect tells a racist joke about illegal immigrants or a sexist one about women in the kitchen I will have the guts to stand up to him and voice my concern, even though I know he thinks the jokes are harmless fun. But I haven’t had the guts yet, and I don’t feel guilty about it one bit. It’s a process, and I’m confidant that one day, if I keep at it, I will evolve to the point where I can address the issue with the right tact and rhetoric that will cause him to change, rather than feel attacked or alienated. Each day I see my confidence as a feminist grow, and I can’t fault others for being ahead of me or behind me. It’s a process, and as they say, you can’t pull the skin off a snake.
**Ryan, sorry if I’m speaking for you, but I felt like I could relate given the fact I had quite a few misogynistic attitudes to confront myself. Please correct me if I’m totally off-base. :-P
manafanana, I mostly agree with your thoughts, but I really tried to be clear that I wasn't making demands on Ryan or judging his character, as I know practically nothing about him (although I have a weird feeling that I know someone with the same name, but anyway), and I'm pretty sure I was clear that I know it's hard to do and doesn't happen overnight, as I even said that I don't do it enough myself. So, I guess I'm just saying, I already agreed with what appear to be your objections to my comment. I apologize to Ryan if I came off differently, though.
But I do want to be clear that I believe there are real consequences for women and LGBT people (and men, since we're talking about pressure on men to conform to gender roles) when men let their friends think that they agree with their misogyny and homophobia. Here's Kate Harding on that topic - you can skip to the second bulleted list. Here's a study on the effect of a male's peers on his attitudes towards rape.
Also, I disagree with the idea that someone who's called "fag" but known to be straight is in as much danger as someone who's actually gay. I haven't seen stats, but I have the impression that allies are targeted for hate crimes much less than the actual hated people. In fact, that's a big part of where I'm coming from - the danger of an ally being mocked is outweighed by the danger of the hated people being raped or killed. That's why this is worth striving for. But I still acknowledge that it's hard, that we need time to work towards it, that it's ok to pick your battles because some of them might not accomplish anything anyway, that sometimes you might be in real danger and it's ok to protect yourself, and that I don't know Ryan Capuano and can't, and don't want to, judge his feminist-ness.
Ryan, I hope none of this discourages you. I really did appreciate your post, and the fact that you're publishing feminist thought online under your real name is not lost on me.
Oh, I missed this part of your comment: "And if you think about it this way, what positive effect can he have on people who won’t take him seriously?"
Since I don't know the situation, I don't know if that applies or not. I had that in mind, though, when I said that sometimes it makes sense to talk to your good friends but not random acquaintances about this stuff. But it reminds me of another part of why I thought this was worth bringing up, which is that sexist males are more likely to listen to other males than females. So feminist males can have a real impact and I'd like to encourage them to take advantage of that.
ryan, i am really glad that you are a male feminist (sometimes it feels like there aren't any).
i know it can be really hard to speak up about certain issues sometimes, but when you do, your voice will carry with it a unique power.
here's a post from shakesville on speaking up:
How do you handle work-a-day or every day racist, misogynistic, or otherwise offensive quips or comments?
First of all, thanks for everyone's kind words and support. I really do appreciate it all. And I'm glad this issue was able to start this conversation.
And I should get it out of the way now and say no, manafanana, I do not think you were speaking for me, and I appreciate you vocalizing more or less what I'm feeling. I'm also glad that you can relate to the situation. And judgesnineteen, I in no way took your comment as condescending or harsh. This is a very complicated issue.
It's really hard to keep up with all the masculine bullshit: pretending you know the starting lineup to the Milwaukee Bucks, denying being a fan of Rufus Wainwright, and faking that I looked at reprehensible porn (which, going back to Jen's point, is disturbingly realistic compared to American porn) from Japan. I really feel like I'm using my opportunity of writing on this blog to come to terms with and develop my feminist ideals and how I can eventually gain the courage to deal with misogynistic comments and jokes, and pressures to conform to the patriarchy and treat women like a possession instead of a person.
There are valid points on both sides of this issue, but I feel the best method for me is to take it one step at a time. First and foremost, I'll be telling off that guy who sent me the link to this Japanese bagging business. Well, not so much telling him off as I am explaining to him why I find this kind of thing damaging and offensive. It's a learning process. I've only been here for a week and half, but I've come so far in that time that it's incredible. Thanks to everyone for sharing in the experience.
And thanks for the support and the link, la mestiza. It was really brilliant and helpful.
Self-identified "male feminists", and the fact that women feminists demand that all males take on that title really bothers me.
Men are often told by feminists that men's issues are our problem, and if we want to change them, it's up to us, yet they routinely expect men to be "male feminists" and fight for their rights and privileges.
Go figure.
Self-identified "male feminists", and the fact that women feminists demand that all males take on that title really bothers me.
Men are often told by feminists that men's issues are our problem, and if we want to change them, it's up to us, yet they routinely expect men to be "male feminists" and fight for their rights and privileges.
Go figure.
You know, I'm seeing something really strange happening on this blog. People like you, Ennui, who have such strong opinions about feminism/feminists, make incorrect assertions and don't even bother to ask all the feminists here if what you're saying is true.
I have no idea where you got the idea that "women feminists demand that all males take on that title" of male feminist. You said that that was a "fact," and it is certainly not so.
I have never heard a feminist demand that anyone take on the identity of feminist. I hang out with a lot of feminists, and not once has that ever been the case.
Your assertions about feminism and feminists are just wrong. I will not deny the possibility that some feminists act in the ways you have described, but that's a lousy description of the movement in general, and the majority of the people who make it up.
I think Ryan is a strong person because he has to deal with a lot of crap from comments on this blog, people who assume they know him and why he is writing for a feminist blog (I have actually never heard him call himself a feminist. And there is a difference between identifying as a feminist and being sympathetic to the causes of feminism.).
But I just wanted to let you know, Ennui, that if care to have low opinions of feminism/feminists, you could always...you know...talk to the feminists here and see if we could change your mind. That would be the mature thing to do. Not asserting your knowledge of a movement that it is popular to dislike.
I have no idea where you got the idea that "women feminists demand that all males take on that title" of male feminist. You said that that was a "fact," and it is certainly not so.
Well, how about "Women feminists want all males to take on that title."? Better?
I think Ryan is a strong person because he has to deal with a lot of crap from comments on this blog, people who assume they know him and why he is writing for a feminist blog
I think he's kind of sad, pitiful. It takes a very damaged sort of man to say "Women's issues are more important than my own".
Not asserting your knowledge of a movement that it is popular to dislike.
Did you ever consider WHY it's popular to dislike?
I've lurked, read comments. I see males told if they want change in their issues, they should do something about it, then I see women here applauding males for being "feminist", and saying they expect males should be feminist.
It simply doesn't make sense.
I mean, why should we take on the title of feminist, and put ourselves in front to take hits for what you want, and be left hanging out to dry for what we want?
Well, how about "Women feminists want all males to take on that title."? Better?
No. Because that is also not true. It might be true if you said, "a woman feminst, [insert name here], wants all males to take on that title, and I believe that's unfair." But to suggest that all women feminists want that is incorrect because none of the feminists on this blog have ever said that all men should be feminists. Sorry, perhaps I am nitpicky, but that is because on this blog we have been attacked for using unclear language. So I ask you to do the same. And if you really believe that every single woman feminist wants every man to identify as feminist, you are incorrect, and all I ask is for you to recognize that.
I think he's kind of sad, pitiful. It takes a very damaged sort of man to say "Women's issues are more important than my own".
Again, why do you feel that it is necessary to attack someone you do not know? Name calling ("sad, pitiful" and "damaged sort of man") is not an appropriate way to gain supporters for your point of view. I do not understand, and I doubt I ever will, why people such as yourself see fit to assume you know the motives behind a male voicing his thoughts on a feminist blog. You are assuming that the reason Ryan writes here is because he feels that "women's issues are more important than my own." How would you know? Have you ever spoken to him about this topic?
Why is it popular to dislike the feminist movement. Well, this could be a post all on its own, but it starts, perhaps, somewhere in the fact that feminists, in their own ways, work to enact change to the status quo. If you are benefiting from the current system, of course you're going to dislike it when a group of people tries to change it. And let's face it, a lot of people are benefiting. So it becomes popular, like forming some sort of team, to dislike feminism.
I am confused as to where you see "women here applauding males for being "feminist", and saying they expect males should be feminist." [emphasis mine]
I know that the contributors to this blog feel strongly about a variety of issues that could be labeled as "women's" issues, but could also be labeled as "human rights" issues. That does not mean that we think that "men's" issues don't matter.
I mean, why should we take on the title of feminist, and put ourselves in front to take hits for what you want, and be left hanging out to dry for what we want?
I never said you should be left out to dry. No on on this blog said you should be left out to dry. The problem is that if there are so many issues you feel passionate about, and expect women to help you with, why haven't they been brought up here? You are wrong to assume that no one here cares about the issues that you see as important, Ennui, because instead of bringing up those issues and asking our opinions on them, you instead attack us as feminists and our movement.
I think he's kind of sad, pitiful. It takes a very damaged sort of man to say "Women's issues are more important than my own".
Yes, because that's exactly the words that came out of my mouth. It's as if you've reached into my brain and vocalized exactly what I was thinking. Thank you so much for putting into perspective just how sad a man I am. You're right: just because I write at a feminist blog and sympathize with the cause means that I completely neglect my own problems.
But to suggest that all women feminists want that is incorrect because none of the feminists on this blog have ever said that all men should be feminists.
So you're saying you don't want that? You wouldn't prefer that? I can't see why you wouldn't want that.
Again, why do you feel that it is necessary to attack someone you do not know? Name calling ("sad, pitiful" and "damaged sort of man") is not an appropriate way to gain supporters for your point of view.
How is it namecalling? I said I find it sad and pitiful. That's not calling him names, it's saying I have pity on him. It makes me wonder what happened to him to make him consider his own less important, that's all.
I know that the contributors to this blog feel strongly about a variety of issues that could be labeled as "women's" issues, but could also be labeled as "human rights" issues. That does not mean that we think that "men's" issues don't matter.
I see that a lot. Saying that women's issues are "human rights" issues, and would benefit everyone.
Thank you so much for putting into perspective just how sad a man I am. You're right: just because I write at a feminist blog and sympathize with the cause means that I completely neglect my own problems.
Well, it's just that I read what you write, and it sounds like someone has a hand stuck into a hole in your back, and they're just making you say what they want. "I hate porn. I hate sports. I hate everything associated with males. Maleness is gross and bad." and so on.
My goal in starting this blog was not to attempt to turn everyone into a feminist. My only goal was to promote discussion about feminist issues. I don't care if you agree with me or not, as long as people have sources to access information about topics and your ideas/opinions about these topics are not clouded by, perhaps, their inherent dislike for "feminism."
It makes me wonder what happened to him to make him consider his own less important, that's all.
Yes, but you're still assuming he thinks "his own" are less important. Which is an ineffective argument. Because I am very political, and I have been following the primaries and such, but I do not write about that on this blog. Does that make my interest in politics any less valid? No. It is just not something that I discuss on this particular forum. Same could go for Ryan.
it sounds like someone has a hand stuck into a hole in your back, and they're just making you say what they want. "I hate porn. I hate sports. I hate everything associated with males. Maleness is gross and bad." and so on.
Nice. Discrediting his opinions, assuming that there is no way he can hold such opinions without someone "making him" say things. You must not think much of, you know, human diversity.
Not all men like sports. Not all men like porn. Does that make them lesser men? Who are you to decide that, anyway, especially regarding a man you have never met.
Please, I want you to realize that you are assuming things, and it is not fair. That's all I want.
Nice. Discrediting his opinions, assuming that there is no way he can hold such opinions without someone "making him" say things. You must not think much of, you know, human diversity.
A male that goes out of his way to be a permanent or whatever contributor to a feminist site, and talk about how important feminism is, and basically denounce his manhood isn't human diversity to me. It just sounds like someone who is parroting what he's told.
Not all men like sports. Not all men like porn. Does that make them lesser men? Who are you to decide that, anyway, especially regarding a man you have never met.
Going out of your way to endlessly talk about how much you dislike everything about being male does make you a lesser man.
Please, I want you to realize that you are assuming things, and it is not fair. That's all I want.
Life isn't fair.
It just sounds like someone who is parroting what he's told.
"sounds like" =/= "is."
Hooray, it's a concern troll (and if I'm correct in my id, one who is no longer welcome at Feministing). Oh Amelia, you must reveal your secrets at troll catching.
Hooray, it's a concern troll (and if I'm correct in my id, one who is no longer welcome at Feministing)
"Concern troll"?
Wait, so, anyone who dares to have an opinion you don't agree with, or has concerns about their own issues is a troll?
"Going out of your way to endlessly talk about how much you dislike everything about being male does make you a lesser man."
What are you encompassing in your defination of "everything about being a man"? So far, Ryan has stated that he doesn't like porn or sports. Is liking those the qualification for being a "man"?
And what is a "lesser man"? Someone who is less masculine in the traditional sense? Are gay men "lesser men"? Are disabled men who can no longer play sports lesser men?
Wait, so, anyone who dares to have an opinion you don't agree with, or has concerns about their own issues is a troll?
No, but someone who comes off as condescendingly as you do is a troll. And for the record, I do enjoy sports to a certain degree. It's just that when you're surrounded by a bunch of blue collar guys who talk to you about obscure players on fourth-place teams in a sport in which I can only name players on the team I like, you feel compelled to pretend to know what it is so as to least keep up this air of manliness in front of the other guys. You know, so you don't get that, "Ah, dude, that Adam Dunn had a hell of a game last night, huh?" And it's just assumed that since I'm a guy, I should know who he is (I now know he's on the Cincinnati Reds, after some research).
And of course I can formulate my own opinion on feminism. These women aren't out to destroy the male race. They just want fair and equal treatment. And that's something I can get behind. I gotta wonder, if this were the 60's and you found me advocating the Civil Rights Movement, would that constitute as putting the needs of black people ahead of my own?
Going out of your way to endlessly talk about how much you dislike everything about being male does make you a lesser man.
So far, I've had two posts and I've only attacked porn and The Wachowski Brothers. I don't see how that's ENDLESSLY going out of my way to talk about how much I dislike EVERYTHING about being male. Being a real man just means having integrity, and being able to take care of yourself, and if necessary, your family. It's not some machismo bullcrap. And I am, of course, in now way disavowing my manhood. I'm proud to be who I am and I'll defend that whenever necessary.
outcrazyophelia: I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks "ennui" and "anonymous" are the same person...
Ryan,
Just thought I'd throw a little support your way.
As a reformed right-winger, I recognize the idiocy ennui spews forth as typical of his ilk.
One need only listen to fools like Michael Savage or Rush Limbaugh to understand that it's ennui who is serving as a parrot to his misanthropic heroes.
"A male that goes out of his way to be a permanent or whatever contributor to a feminist site, and talk about how important feminism is, and basically denounce his manhood isn't human diversity to me. It just sounds like someone who is parroting what he's told."
"Not all men like sports. Not all men like porn. Does that make them lesser men? Who are you to decide that, anyway, especially regarding a man you have never met."
"Going out of your way to endlessly talk about how much you dislike everything about being male does make you a lesser man."
As you can see, anything that conflicts with ennui's idea of male means it must be anti-male.
Thus, males must enjoy sports, cannot support women's issues, and generally must fulfill every tired old stereotype that pop culture perpetuates.
cheers!
aOC
http://anoptimisticcynic.blogspot.com/
p.s. I came across this blog about a week ago; really, really glad to find other male feminists!
Just thought I'd throw a little support your way.
As a reformed right-winger, I recognize the idiocy ennui spews forth as typical of his ilk.
One need only listen to fools like Michael Savage or Rush Limbaugh to understand that it's ennui who is serving as a parrot to his misanthropic heroes.
Excuse me, what?
Way to go, you made a ridiculous assumption, and in doing so, firmly wedged not one, but BOTH feet in your mouth.
So, back to the drawing board for your argument.
Ah, well.
As you can see, anything that conflicts with ennui's idea of male means it must be anti-male.
Thus, males must enjoy sports, cannot support women's issues, and generally must fulfill every tired old stereotype that pop culture perpetuates.
Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but if a man embraces femininity and the causes and issues of women, and all but denounces his maleness, then he's not much of a man, is he?
If you're willing to remain ignorant in your comfortable, stereotypical gender roles, why exactly do you read this blog? Everything these people write about runs counter to the simplistic and stubbornly conservative viewpoints that you obviously hold.
It must be aggravating. These progressive individuals, how dare they suggest that all is not right and perfect with our society? How dare they imply that inequality still exists and it oppresses half of the world's population? Shame on them for caring about true equality instead of the farce that passes for it.
In relation to this post, I think it's quite telling that you chose to attack Ryan's masculinity rather than the real issue of sexual assault that he wrote about.
Ryan and all other men who support the goals of feminism have claimed their masculinity in a way that you can't understand (at least not yet), and that bothers you, doesn't it? Male feminists don't fit nicely into the "jock douche bag" box that you seem bent on perpetuating, and that scares you.
Please don't get the impression that anyone is telling you can't remain in that box if you want to -- just don't expect any coddling when you wake up (if you ever do) and the world has left you behind.
Again, "andrew", why are you bothering to post comments? You're just making things up.
It's really easy to make a series of straw man arguments, but a lot harder to actually make valid points.
So I can see why you chose the easy path of straw men, as it required no real thinking on your part.
I'd address your post piece by piece, but there's no point. It's one giant straw man. There's really no reason to address straw man arguments, as by their very nature, they're wrong, and not worth the time it takes to deconstruct them.
Maybe one day YOU will wake up and realize that there's nothing "masculine" about subverting your own concerns and desires, and becoming a tool for women to use as they see fit, to further their goals.
I'm sure you're quite happy living a kept life, but maybe one day you'll actually claim your own masculinity and stand up for yourself, instead of desperately seeking the approval of a bunch of women that care about what you can do for them, not what you are.
Don't let him bother you, Andrew. :)
Ha. You're right... you know, you guys should really post those signs saying "Please don't feed the trolls."
;)
Yeah, can't have anyone shattering your beliefs that everyone who disagrees with you is a Rush listenin', Bush-votin', hard-drinking redneck!
I mean, without those illusions, what will you use to insult and attack your opponents? You'll have to make solid points!
...as I have yet to see you do, Ennui!
But that's it. I will not longer engage in this conversation.
:)
Yeah, I'm done with it, too. I've debunked every point he's made and defended myself well enough where I still feel like a man, so I don't have anything else to add, as he keeps bringing up the same assumptions and tired, weak arguments.
Yeah, I'm done with it, too. I've debunked every point he's made and defended myself well enough where I still feel like a man, so I don't have anything else to add, as he keeps bringing up the same assumptions and tired, weak arguments.
You haven't defended a thing.
You're still here, still taking the time to bother being a blogger on a woman's site. Ergo, you aren't much of a man, if you think it's your responsibility to fight for women.
Ennui,
Listening to you is like listening to my senile grandmother talk about the war. You both say the darnedest things. it's hilarious.
Listening to you is like listening to my senile grandmother talk about the war. You both say the darnedest things. it's hilarious.
Look, you can resort to ad hominem attacks, that's fine, I don't mind.
It's just sad, really. It's a shame you grew up to be a woman. I figure your parents hoped their son would grow up to be a man. :)
Ennui,
Stay on topic. We're done with that discussion. If you don't have anything to say about the original post or sexual assault in general, then you will not be listened to.
For everyone reading: Ennui's comments are now being closely monitored and most likely deleted because he continues to assault the manhood of one of my co-bloggers and has made it rather clear that he is no longer willing to contribute to productive discourse.
If you have an issue with my decision about this, please e-mail me personally.
Nothing more will be said on this manner.
Thank you.
Again, Ennui, if you would like to e-mail me about this, please feel free to do so, although it would take a few more minutes than leaving insulting comments here.
Ennui, I totally disagree with almost everything the bloggers here say, and try my darndest to refute them, and right now you are hurting the cause and making all the conservatives look like asses. Be careful.
Also, to the original poster, we all know you are not trying to claim that all japanese are responsible for this, but you seem unclear. MY girlfriend's sister has been dating a guy from Japan for awhile, and he is a great guy. This seems like a bit of a bald stereotype you are making.
Also, to the original poster, we all know you are not trying to claim that all japanese are responsible for this, but you seem unclear. MY girlfriend's sister has been dating a guy from Japan for awhile, and he is a great guy. This seems like a bit of a bald stereotype you are making.
I believe I've covered this already. Of course not all Japanese people who don't do things like this. But there are a select few who think it's a good idea. I'm sure there are people in America who do it, too. The only type I've come across has indeed Japanese and I felt it necessary to comment on it.
How sad and pitiful of you, amelia.
Not at all unexpected, though.
Great way to make change in the world, by desperately fighting to silence the free speech of everyone who doesn't toe your line.
Things like this are why feminism will forever be a joke, along the lines of PETA.
How sad and pitiful of you, amelia.
Not at all unexpected, though.
Great way to make change in the world, by desperately fighting to silence the free speech of everyone who doesn't toe your line.
Things like this are why feminism will forever be a joke, along the lines of PETA.
heee. Funny. I didn't even delete that one. I was gonna leave it up, despite its ignorance, because you made no personal attacks...unlike your last line.
Just so you know, I'm not the only person capable of deleting your words. :)
And Ryan: Please leave Ennui's comment about how pitiful I am for everyone to see.
because you made no personal attacks...unlike your last line.
My last line, if we're on the same page here, was not a personal attack. Just a stark truth.
And Ryan: Please leave Ennui's comment about how pitiful I am for everyone to see.
If it was him, then, well, that makes him even less of a man, that he's afraid of criticism.
Ryan uses his real name. Doesn't seem like he's afraid of much to me. :) :) :)
Ennui,
I can take criticism and personal attacks, even threats. I deal with them on a weekly basis. If you think for a second that, A) you're the worst I've heard, or B) you're getting to me at all, then you are sadly mistaken. Afraid? No. Just tired of you derailing intelligent conversations into the realm of personal attacks and then crying foul when we call you on it.
I figure your parents hoped their son would grow up to be a man. :)
This is a personal attack. It's what people resort to when they don't have any defense left.
And thank you for backing me up, Amelia. I was the one who deleted a few of those, by the way, but if you want me to leave those specific ones up, I'm all for it.
Ryan, feel free to delete any comments. I trust your judgment. I just personally wanted that attack on me left as an example of what we've been deleting.
Haha. Keep proving my point.
Guess you didn't want the girls seeing your misogynist statement called out?
Again, if you consider being called a woman to be a personal attack, you must hate women, or find something wrong with being one.
Keep trying to hide that. :)
Funny how things turn around on you, though.
Though, that's the true core of feminism. Scream that you have the right of free speech, and then attempt to silence anyone that disagrees with any of your rhetoric.
Cute, really. Good times.
Impromptu poll: did any of the females here find my statement misogynistic? The statement was in reference to Ennui calling me a woman and me considering it a personal attack.
Though, that's the true core of feminism. Scream that you have the right of free speech, and then attempt to silence anyone that disagrees with any of your rhetoric.
We left Goose's comments up and he disagrees with us rather vehemently. We didn't delete his posts because he actually has logic and civility to his arguments and he won't resort to personal attacks. Really, it was fun at first completely dismantling everything you say, then having you denying anything of the sort being done, then going back to the same tired rhetoric about me being a woman and my parents being ashamed of me. Now it's just repetitive. Aren't you getting tired of this?
Really, it was fun at first completely dismantling everything you say, then having you denying anything of the sort being done, then going back to the same tired rhetoric about me being a woman and my parents being ashamed of me. Now it's just repetitive. Aren't you getting tired of this?
You dismantled nothing. That's what's funny.
You don't win an argument by standing there, and declaring yourself the winner. Not really how it works.
Really, though. Considering the site you blog for, you shouldn't ever use the words "tired old rhetoric", because that's all feminism has. Nothing new, nothing important, nothing helpful. Just the same, tired complaints, excuses, and demands for selective equality and/or superiority.
You just did it again! It's like clockwork. I love it.
You just did it again! It's like clockwork. I love it.
You're so cute, pretending as you are.
Please, do, point me to where you "dismantled" anything.
I repeat: You do not win an argument by saying "I win!". Doesn't work that way.
Sorry, kiddo.
Though, I don't expect a whole lot, honestly, from a poor, brainwashed individual that's operating under the impression that women are somehow his betters, or that he "needs" them.
I do feel bad for people such as yourself.
Though, I don't expect a whole lot, honestly, from a poor, brainwashed individual that's operating under the impression that women are somehow his betters, or that he "needs" them.
I'll start by pointing out what's wrong with this, as I have already countless times, but frankly, I'm getting sick of this argument, and it seems like everyone else has as well, because you and I are the only ones going back and forth. This is an assumption. You assume that I think women are better, which is untrue. I view everyone equally, which is why I write here. I wouldn't write for a radical feminist blog that advocated castrating. There are sensible people writing for this site. And I don't know what you're getting at with the whole me needing women thing, so instead of jumping to conclusions on an incomplete point, I'll leave it alone.
Also, here's a post earlier in this thread that I put up, in which you did not even mention in your responses. So I'm posting it again, verbatim, and you can see where I have dismantled your arguments. This isn't about winning. This is about standing up for myself and my beliefs:
Wait, so, anyone who dares to have an opinion you don't agree with, or has concerns about their own issues is a troll?
No, but someone who comes off as condescendingly as you do is a troll. And for the record, I do enjoy sports to a certain degree. It's just that when you're surrounded by a bunch of blue collar guys who talk to you about obscure players on fourth-place teams in a sport in which I can only name players on the team I like, you feel compelled to pretend to know what it is so as to least keep up this air of manliness in front of the other guys. You know, so you don't get that, "Ah, dude, that Adam Dunn had a hell of a game last night, huh?" And it's just assumed that since I'm a guy, I should know who he is (I now know he's on the Cincinnati Reds, after some research).
And of course I can formulate my own opinion on feminism. These women aren't out to destroy the male race. They just want fair and equal treatment. And that's something I can get behind. I gotta wonder, if this were the 60's and you found me advocating the Civil Rights Movement, would that constitute as putting the needs of black people ahead of my own?
Going out of your way to endlessly talk about how much you dislike everything about being male does make you a lesser man.
So far, I've had two posts and I've only attacked porn and The Wachowski Brothers. I don't see how that's ENDLESSLY going out of my way to talk about how much I dislike EVERYTHING about being male. Being a real man just means having integrity, and being able to take care of yourself, and if necessary, your family. It's not some machismo bullcrap. And I am, of course, in now way disavowing my manhood. I'm proud to be who I am and I'll defend that whenever necessary.
Dismantled. And you did not respond to this, so for a brief moment, I had to assume that you were going to admit that you were wrong.
You assume that I think women are better, which is untrue. I view everyone equally, which is why I write here. I wouldn't write for a radical feminist blog that advocated castrating. There are sensible people writing for this site. And I don't know what you're getting at with the whole me needing women thing, so instead of jumping to conclusions on an incomplete point, I'll leave it alone.
If you viewed everyone as equal, I'd expect you'd devote equal time to a blog advocating various rights and such for men. Do you?
If you do not, then you are unbalanced by being here.
Naturally, you'd leave the last part alone. Typical, really.
These women aren't out to destroy the male race. They just want fair and equal treatment. And that's something I can get behind. I gotta wonder, if this were the 60's and you found me advocating the Civil Rights Movement, would that constitute as putting the needs of black people ahead of my own?
False analogy. That's why I ignored it. I don't respond to logical fallacies.
If you use them in a debate, I ignore your statement. Period.
To address the other part: Women can own land, hold jobs, go to college, abort children they don't want (men don't get that right. Not fair and equal, hmm?) and are allowed to do anything a male is.
Moving on.
I don't see how that's ENDLESSLY going out of my way to talk about how much I dislike EVERYTHING about being male.
You post on a feminist blog. 'Nuff said, really. That already implies a distaste for masculinity.
Being a real man just means having integrity, and being able to take care of yourself, and if necessary, your family.
False. Being a "real man" has nothing to do with "taking care of your family". That would be, you know, sexist. Equality and all that, your family doesn't need taking care of, your wife can get a job, right?
Dismantled. And you did not respond to this, so for a brief moment, I had to assume that you were going to admit that you were wrong.
Not dismantled in the least.
Really. What DID you study in college? Did you just take nonsense electives and/or women's studies crap?
Where did you learn to debate? Using a flurry of logical fallacies and various other bogus arguments doesn't win you a debate, it makes you look foolish.
Tsk, tsk. Though, as stated, I didn't expect any better from you.
Go back to hating porn, naked women, and fighting your illusory "patriarchy". You're too much of a joke to really have a serious discussion with.
Ennui, I give up. Your arguments are filled with generalizations, taking things out of context, circular logic, and assumptions, which makes me wonder where YOU learned to debate. Anything further you post on this thread that is off-topic will be deleted by either me or Amelia, end of story. And no more of your hate and personal attacks will be entertained.
I'm with you, Ryan.
And I find it interesting that someone like him uses terms like "ad hominem attacks" and "logical fallacies" but refuses to acknowledge his own weaknesses.
But again, this is over. It has long since failed to be productive.
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