tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6730657139931062421.post6767435123012209361..comments2023-05-14T03:03:09.451-05:00Comments on Female Impersonator: Eww: A Rad Feminist Reads About Johns and Their "Pain", Provides Witty CommentaryAmeliahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10884754298018500343noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6730657139931062421.post-50154230940948926672008-05-24T17:33:00.000-05:002008-05-24T17:33:00.000-05:00It was not on topic because all you said was that ...It was not on topic because all you said was that poor women/women who are unsure about their relationship shouldn't have children. That has little to do with johns/sex work because you didn't mention it.<BR/><BR/>Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.Ameliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10884754298018500343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6730657139931062421.post-46551425350259095052008-05-24T16:14:00.000-05:002008-05-24T16:14:00.000-05:00Anon, I think your judgments about single mothers ...<I>Anon, I think your judgments about single mothers is unfair.<BR/><BR/>You can be in a stable relationship, have kids, and still end up a single mother. You are being unduly harsh toward a large group of people whose individual circumstances you do not know.<BR/><BR/>But back on topic: This thread is not meant to be about single mothers. It's supposed to be about Johns and prostitution/sex work.</I><BR/><BR/>I don't think I'm being unfair. If you're so uneducated that McDonald's is the only way you can support your offspring, you shouldn't have had any.<BR/><BR/>Also, it was generally on topic, as the discussion had gone towards ways that women might be supporting their ill-advised children, such as prostitution.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6730657139931062421.post-58487856654145354552008-05-24T14:13:00.000-05:002008-05-24T14:13:00.000-05:00Your comment was fine, Faith. It's just that Anon'...Your comment was fine, Faith. It's just that Anon's comment responding to it seemed to be veering off topic.<BR/><BR/>Please continue to discuss, though!Ameliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10884754298018500343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6730657139931062421.post-817621908770527242008-05-24T13:58:00.000-05:002008-05-24T13:58:00.000-05:00"But back on topic: This thread is not meant to be..."But back on topic: This thread is not meant to be about single mothers. It's supposed to be about Johns and prostitution/sex work."<BR/><BR/>Sorry, Amelia, I wasn't trying to turn it into a discussion about single mothers, per se. I was only attempting to give an explanation for why some women end up with prostitution as an only option....which I thought was basically on topic.Faithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11408463400621223528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6730657139931062421.post-40442213177091895002008-05-24T12:47:00.000-05:002008-05-24T12:47:00.000-05:00Anon, I think your judgments about single mothers ...Anon, I think your judgments about single mothers is unfair.<BR/><BR/>You can be in a stable relationship, have kids, and still end up a single mother. You are being unduly harsh toward a large group of people whose individual circumstances you do not know.<BR/><BR/>But back on topic: This thread is not meant to be about single mothers. It's supposed to be about Johns and prostitution/sex work.Ameliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10884754298018500343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6730657139931062421.post-89071366537477263932008-05-24T12:02:00.000-05:002008-05-24T12:02:00.000-05:00A job at McDonald's pays an average of $200 to $24...<I>A job at McDonald's pays an average of $200 to $240 a week. If a woman has two children, she will have to pay upwards of $160 a week for child care from 9 to 5. Then she has to buy gas. Then, to get a second job as you say, she has to find child care for the evening. Child care for the evening barely exists unless you have a relative or friend willing to babysit every night for you. This means the children would have to be left home alone, an impossibility if the children are young. And what if she lives in a rural area and doesn't and can't afford a vehicle? What then? What should she do? How is she supposed to get to work everyday? And strip clubs are also out of the question unless you actually live in an area in which strip clubs exist...and again, there's that pesky problem of finding child care during evening hours.</I><BR/><BR/>All this says to me is:<BR/><BR/>Perhaps women shouldn't be having kids unless they're in a stable relationship where they won't end up as a single mother.<BR/><BR/>Also, if your income is SO low that you're supporting two kids on McDonald's, perhaps you shouldn't have had them in the first place.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6730657139931062421.post-38302598688578108602008-05-24T07:32:00.000-05:002008-05-24T07:32:00.000-05:00Great American,"This makes absolutely no sense. Pl...Great American,<BR/><BR/>"This makes absolutely no sense. Please explain the logic behind this. If there actually is any..."<BR/><BR/>It makes perfect sense: http://www.justicewomen.com/cj_sweden.html<BR/><BR/>As for the rest of your comment, I'm inclined to not respond at all as I'm guessing there isn't much hope in you truly understanding. You are quite clearly a man, and I'm guessing also a very white man. You are clearly speaking from a position of obvious privilege. But here's a quick response:<BR/><BR/>A job at McDonald's pays an average of $200 to $240 a week. If a woman has two children, she will have to pay upwards of $160 a week for child care from 9 to 5. Then she has to buy gas. Then, to get a second job as you say, she has to find child care for the evening. Child care for the evening barely exists unless you have a relative or friend willing to babysit every night for you. This means the children would have to be left home alone, an impossibility if the children are young. And what if she lives in a rural area and doesn't and can't afford a vehicle? What then? What should she do? How is she supposed to get to work everyday? And strip clubs are also out of the question unless you actually live in an area in which strip clubs exist...and again, there's that pesky problem of finding child care during evening hours.<BR/><BR/>Oh, and they aren't just handing out welfare like candy as you say, they've actually become quite strict about welfare in many areas...and even if they can get welfare, it's still often not enough to make ends meet.Faithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11408463400621223528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6730657139931062421.post-30399836921244380762008-05-23T22:32:00.000-05:002008-05-23T22:32:00.000-05:00"Meaning I believe in making the act of purchasing..."Meaning I believe in making the act of purchasing sex illegal while decriminalizing the act of selling sex."<BR/><BR/>This makes absolutely no sense. Please explain the logic behind this. If there actually is any...<BR/><BR/>Okay, so a one job can't satisfy the price of bills, etc. Get two jobs. Buy only the necessities. It might suck, but thats life. There's also government assistance, and these days they hand that stuff out like candy. So the only way I would feel bad for women who voluntary enters the sex industry is if they've applied and been rejected for every job they could possibly have inquired, they have exhausted every single government assistance program, they have asked every family member or friend they have for help and prostitution is the absolute dead last option conceiveable. Then they have my sympathy. Before I really got my life back on track with the Lord i went to a strip club or two, and let me tell you, they hire ANYBODY these days. So if someone feels they need to take their clothes off for money, go to a strip joint and ask for a job. And while I believe strip clubs are almost as equally disgusting and immoral, at least it's legal.<BR/><BR/>Also, how would legalizing the sex industry help women in any way? What would be the the main requirements for the job? Have a vagina and be able to lay down? The women end up looking just as pathetic as the men that use them.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05697447084483553573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6730657139931062421.post-60294919440515139792008-05-23T07:20:00.000-05:002008-05-23T07:20:00.000-05:00"When I think of legalizing sex work, and I really..."When I think of legalizing sex work, and I really do believe that it should be, I do not say that because I think that sex should be in any way cheapened."<BR/><BR/>I personally understand what you are saying completely, and it's a stance many take. I personally can't support legalization. I'm all for decriminalization of selling sex, but not legalization...which is actually two different things entirely. If you legalize it, to some degree, you normalize it. Even if that isn't your intention you are sending the message that it's at least to some degree ok for men to purchase sex from women. The other major problem with legalization is that areas which legalize sex work attract higher rates of sex trafficking. Which makes perfect sense: If you are trafficking human beings for sex, obviously it's going to be easier if you are in an area in which sex work is legal.Faithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11408463400621223528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6730657139931062421.post-58486668236564453232008-05-23T07:12:00.000-05:002008-05-23T07:12:00.000-05:00"My personal opinion is that if you are now to the..."My personal opinion is that if you are now to the level of prostitution. That should tell me that you have exhausted absolutely every other option. Would you honestly be willing to accept the risks that come along with prostitution."<BR/><BR/>Great American,<BR/><BR/>I'm afraid you completely misinterpreted my statement. I have no desire whatsoever to become a prostitute. If you, however, believe that a woman can honestly subsist and survive on an income from Mickey D's - especially if she has children - you are sadly mistaken and clearly have no real understanding of the reality that women (particularly single mothers) face. My stance on sex work is apparently quite similar to Jen's. I do not support or believe in prostitution. I did when I was younger, I do not anymore. At this point in time, I view prostitution as violence against women. I support the Swedish model of legislation for prostitution. Meaning I believe in making the act of purchasing sex illegal while decriminalizing the act of selling sex. <BR/><BR/>"My personal belief is that sex should be reserved for ones spouse. I know thats not a popular opinion these days, but for the sake of argument let's at least say that sex is something that should be shared between two people that genuinely care for each other."<BR/><BR/>I'm sorry, I really don't agree with that statement at all. I've had lots of sex with lots of different people. I cared about some of them deeply. Some I barely knew. I do not believe that engaging in sex in this manner "cheapens sex", not in the slightest. Sex can be and is whatever two or more people wish it to be. It's as simple as that. I am against prostitution because I believe it reduces women to sexual commodities and reinforces their subordinate status in society. My feelings of repulsion for the sex industry in general have little to do with a belief that sex should be between two people who care about each other. I have a quite liberal view on sex but I draw the line at supporting prostitution.Faithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11408463400621223528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6730657139931062421.post-25610016176650137192008-05-23T06:40:00.000-05:002008-05-23T06:40:00.000-05:00Amelia,going back to STD thing. I was purusing som...Amelia,<BR/><BR/>going back to STD thing. I was purusing some older posts on this blog. I noticed one actually posted by you on March 11th. It was about a study done by the CDC which concluded that 1 in 4 teenage girls have an STD. To relate that to the whole sex industry legalization, let's say that 5 years from now it's legal. "John" walks into a brothel, 16 women work at this brothel, just going by the statistics (and assuming that they haven't changed in that 5 year period) he has a 25% chance of having sex with a woman who has an STD. Now he's had sex and recieved a lovely parting gift known as an STD. He goes home and gives it to his wife/girlfriend. She now has it. He decides to pay another visit to a brothel. This time brothel #2, he gives to his prostitue, who gives it to her next customer who gives it to his wife and so on and so forth. I think you get my drift. And this whole time, nothing illegal was done. It's really something to think about.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05697447084483553573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6730657139931062421.post-76701286617991735042008-05-23T04:10:00.000-05:002008-05-23T04:10:00.000-05:00Also do you think if we legalize the sex industry ...Also do you think if we legalize the sex industry that there might possibly be an influx of trafficked women into our country? Because the advantage for the traffickers would be that they have nothing to hide, all they would have to do is make sure that their ladies keep their mouths shut.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05697447084483553573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6730657139931062421.post-28867071104624287932008-05-22T22:12:00.000-05:002008-05-22T22:12:00.000-05:00See, Great American, I agree with you to an extent...See, Great American, I agree with you to an extent. I do not necessarily believe that sex is meant to be solely between spouses, but I definitely believe (personally) that it should be between people who really care about each other.<BR/><BR/>When I think of legalizing sex work, and I really do believe that it should be, I do not say that because I think that sex should be in any way cheapened.<BR/><BR/>The thing about sex work is that it often IS a last-resort or a confused option for people who were abused or just really need the money. If sex work were legalized, I think it might be a step in the right direction toward truly valuing the work that women do, and that in turn, could end up leading to better pay, and perhaps more opportunities for women outside of sex work.<BR/><BR/>I think that we, as a society, just need to reevaluate the work women do, why the do it, place more value on their contributions to society, etc. That could start with legalizing sex work, and perhaps it could help end sex work as one of the only options for women.<BR/><BR/>I really hope that makes sense.Ameliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10884754298018500343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6730657139931062421.post-79930520542895402172008-05-22T21:57:00.000-05:002008-05-22T21:57:00.000-05:00Faith,My personal opinion is that if you are now t...Faith,<BR/><BR/>My personal opinion is that if you are now to the level of prostitution. That should tell me that you have exhausted absolutely every other option. Would you honestly be willing to accept the risks that come along with prostitution. Let's say you get a customer who doesn't want to pay, so after you've done the deed he pulls out a knife and slits your throat and now your kids have no parents. Or you contract an STD, HIV maybe. Are you really that desperate? Do you see my point?<BR/><BR/>My personal belief is that sex should be reserved for ones spouse. I know thats not a popular opinion these days, but for the sake of argument let's at least say that sex is something that should be shared between two people that genuinely care for each other. With the legalization of the sex industry would surely result in it's increased prevelancy. Now what we've done is made sex just a casual thing that any regular shmuck can get for a little bit of cash. Do you believe that would cheapen the whole "sex between two people that care for each other" thing. I certainly think that sex would no longer be a special thing, but more of a means for self-satisfaction.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05697447084483553573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6730657139931062421.post-40684976645247616432008-05-22T17:09:00.000-05:002008-05-22T17:09:00.000-05:00Andrew-You're right, most men don't solicit sex wo...Andrew-<BR/><I>You're right, most men don't solicit sex workers, but a much larger percentage of men use pornography. Are they just as bad as the others? Or mostly harmless, because they only participate on a visual level? Or perhaps worse, since they're not even willing to put themselves in a (sexually or legally) vulnerable position?</I><BR/><BR/>I know this is tangential again, but I'm also against pornography for the same sorts of reasons. You will probably see more posts on that point as I finish up a couple of essays I'm working on and read "Pornified", which I just picked up at the library yesterday.Jennhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05333226493312516551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6730657139931062421.post-64107512561023356342008-05-22T10:29:00.000-05:002008-05-22T10:29:00.000-05:00And to respond to Faith, I was trying to say that ...And to respond to Faith, I was trying to say that I do not believe that all johns understand the problem of trafficking women for prostitution (I wasn't talking about single-owner sex slavery). My statements were meant to be about regular johns on the street who might be ignorant that the woman they are having sex with was trafficked.<BR/><BR/>There was a post about an awareness-raising campaign about this problem over at Feminocracy that made me think that this needs to be talked about more.<BR/><BR/>That's not an excuse, but it is part of the problem.<BR/><BR/>http://feminocracy.wordpress.com/2008/05/12/it-started-with-an-oh-no-they-didnt/Ameliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10884754298018500343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6730657139931062421.post-69651610660282886142008-05-22T10:27:00.000-05:002008-05-22T10:27:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Ameliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10884754298018500343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6730657139931062421.post-66213710520906932932008-05-22T10:21:00.000-05:002008-05-22T10:21:00.000-05:00I would also like to reply to Great American.I wen...I would also like to reply to Great American.<BR/><BR/>I went to a talk about sex workers in Tijuana with Kate, and the speaker said that there was advocacy for safe-sex (condoms) among sex workers (in Mexico there are places where sex work is legal). <BR/><BR/>The speaker also noted that many of the sex workers who got STDs did so when they were not working, because in their more permanent relationships they were more comfortable and careless.<BR/><BR/>That is in Mexico, but I do not see how it would be much different in America if sex work were legalized.<BR/><BR/>And Jen, when you said you wanted to see the prosecution of <I>"the selling and "pimping" of sex. Concentrating law enforcement on the side of the equation that is more often than not guilty of abuses would remove the stigma from the sex workers who are too afraid to seek help because of the risk of legal repercussions</I>, I agreed.Ameliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10884754298018500343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6730657139931062421.post-26720944024980311642008-05-22T09:58:00.000-05:002008-05-22T09:58:00.000-05:00"It gave me the impression that you were talking a..."It gave me the impression that you were talking about trafficked women, as if you were saying that johns know when they are having sex with trafficked women, which, sadly, is not the case."<BR/><BR/>I find it difficult to believe this statement. Many men use sex slaves for the very fact that they do know that the woman is a sex slave. And what of child sex slaves? Even child sex slaves are forced to serve upwards of 20-30 men a day. Obviously these men know what they are doing.Faithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11408463400621223528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6730657139931062421.post-30405141853992981162008-05-22T09:56:00.000-05:002008-05-22T09:56:00.000-05:00"We have to hold John's responsible for their acti..."We have to hold John's responsible for their actions."<BR/><BR/>(first time commenter...)<BR/><BR/>I agree with Jen. Saying that we can't hold John's responsible simply because they are acting out due to being socialized to seeing this behavior is like saying that we can't hold rapists responsible for being rapists. It is a fact that we live in a society that encourages men to buy sex and even to commit sexual violence. We absolutely must do whatever we can do change this reality. However, men are still ultimately responsible for their behavior.<BR/><BR/>"Prostitution isn't the only option for these women. If they need money so bad, go work at McDonalds, go clean toilets in a truckstop bathroom. "<BR/><BR/>Your statement presumes that women can survive off an income that they would earn scrubbing toilets or working at McDonald's. Most people can not survive off of the wages paid for this type of job. If a woman happens to be a single mother, this is almost certainly the case. I am a single mother of 2 children. There is no way in hell I could survive working at McDonald's. If that was my only option, I'd have to become a prostitute to keep a roof over our heads and to keep food in our bellies.Faithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11408463400621223528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6730657139931062421.post-58638468554295474112008-05-22T04:34:00.000-05:002008-05-22T04:34:00.000-05:00I agree with you Jen, I just wanted to point out t...I agree with you Jen, I just wanted to point out the difference between the actions themselves and the attitudes that drove them to those actions. <BR/><BR/>You're right, most men don't solicit sex workers, but a much larger percentage of men use pornography. Are they just as bad as the others? Or mostly harmless, because they only participate on a visual level? Or perhaps worse, since they're not even willing to put themselves in a (sexually or legally) vulnerable position?<BR/><BR/>Anyway, I just wasn't down with the omnipotent hammer of justice you seemed to be wielding in this post. That's all.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03293899765809639283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6730657139931062421.post-16913203152362760412008-05-22T01:38:00.000-05:002008-05-22T01:38:00.000-05:00Hey Great American. We have no problem with you he...Hey Great American. We have no problem with you here, because you generally tend to be nice with your objections.<BR/><BR/>I <I>do</I> blame the sex industry itself. The primary profiteers of the sex industry: the pimps and madams, do bear some sort of blame. However, many many women entered into prostitution for various reasons. For the sake of simplicity, I'd say probably because (a) as an underage runaway, there was no other work, (b) with no education or a child at home that makes regular working hours difficult, prostitution is the best option, (c) it pays better, pimps will give you free drugs if you are already addicted and you cannot pass the mandatory drug tests elsewhere or (d) you genuinely want to make money off of your body, (e) you are a trafficked woman, (f) your abusive boyfriend/pimp requires you to sell sex, or (g) you were sexually abused at a young age and associate your worth with sex.<BR/><BR/>If you'd like, I can dig up the statistics, but a majority of prostitutes all fall into every category but the consensual one, and most of them would leave prostitution in a heartbeat if a viable option came up.<BR/><BR/>Also, I am not for legalizing the sex industry at all. I know that is the argument that is most often shared by liberal and feminist blogs. My opinion is that a culture that objectifies women and still has not achieved gender equality cannot sell sex without some sort of duress and widespread abuse. Evidently, that is the case, being that every sort of statistic I have found shows that the majority of sex workers are there because there are no other options, hate their work, and have been raped and abused repeatedly on the job.<BR/><BR/>My personal opinion, this is tangential to the original post so I apologize in advance, is that we legalize the selling of sex and prosecute the selling and "pimping" of sex. Concentrating law enforcement on the side of the equation that is more often than not guilty of abuses would remove the stigma from the sex workers who are too afraid to seek help because of the risk of legal repercussions. <BR/><BR/>That's just my two bits though. I'm less socially libertarian than many other feminists when it comes to the question of legalizing prostitution, so don't come away from this conversation thinking that my opinion on that point is mainstream or that I'm some sort of spokesman, please.Jennhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05333226493312516551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6730657139931062421.post-56177697950231635532008-05-22T01:31:00.000-05:002008-05-22T01:31:00.000-05:00but because his wife had the audacity to ask for s...<I>but because his wife had the audacity to ask for sexual satisfaction in bed:</I><BR/><BR/>Or more that he was tired of his own needs getting ignored.<BR/><BR/>Funny thing about sex: It's not all about women. <BR/><BR/>If you read his statement, it's about the fact that his wife demanded all the attention, and focused none on him.<BR/><BR/>Unless you agree with the concept that sex should be all about the woman involved.<BR/><BR/><I>I am also guessing that your wife would be more interested in your pleasure if you were more interested in hers. Reciprocity: it's hot.</I><BR/><BR/>Except he said she wasn't. <BR/><BR/><I>Random John B wants all the pleasure without the work.</I><BR/><BR/>Sounds more like what his wife wanted. Wanted him to do everything while she just laid there.<BR/><BR/>Which, well, generally, is what most women do. Expect him to do all the work, and basically lay around and wait for him to do so.<BR/><BR/>Though, at the end of the day, it's not really up to you to get angry at how people use sex. If they use sex for sex, and not some "act of mutual love", it's not really your place to tell them they're doing it wrong.<BR/><BR/>Being against prostitution is fine, and that's your opinion, and it's not a big deal. But the added snark against casual sex isn't nearly as welcome, or objective.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05226216842667611823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6730657139931062421.post-60527741092955051252008-05-22T00:59:00.000-05:002008-05-22T00:59:00.000-05:00Thanks for your thoughts (and politness!) Great Am...Thanks for your thoughts (and politness!) Great American, however, I disagree that it is so easy to find work. Sex work often times pays well, or at least better than McDonald's otherwise so many women would not chose sex work over more "normal" jobs. <BR/><BR/>Also, many prostitutes are runaways, who came into sex work willingly, but can't leave because of their pimps or fear for their lives. Are they to blame if they entered the job willing?<BR/><BR/>Personally, I believe that if sex work were legalized, it could be regulated and condoms would be mandatory, and sex workers (and johns) would be better protected from STDs and pregnancy, not less so. And maybe if sex work were more out in the open, it would become less "sexy" in a way, and more of a regular job. Does that make sense? I'm a little tired.Katehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00139058825727884888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6730657139931062421.post-68093494168006438382008-05-22T00:31:00.000-05:002008-05-22T00:31:00.000-05:00I would just like to say for the record, that i th...I would just like to say for the record, that i thoroughly enjoy coming to this blog and reading it (eventhough I disagree alot). I also enjoy engaging in civil discussions with people i was surely convince I couldn't have a civil discussion with...feminists. You guys are cool.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05697447084483553573noreply@blogger.com