Friday, May 16, 2008

First "plus-size" Top Model wears a size 8, cannot shop in plus-size stores


It should really go without saying that the fat-shaming America's Next Top Model reality show is as close to feminism as Hitler is to Gandhi. In a rare sign of normalcy yesterday, however, the show crowned Whitney Thompson as America's Next Top Model.

Ashamed that they succumbed to the demands of real feminine curves, the world then proceeded to label Thompson "plus size". The model, who confesses that she waivers between size 8 and 10, should be ashamed of her "otherness". No real modeling agency will work with a fatty!

Yet again the media marginalizes the average woman. The beauty ideal is so ridiculous that we label someone who cannot shop in plus-size stores a plus-size model. I must confess that I wear the same size Thompson does, although I am nowhere near as statuesque, blond, or toned. If I wished to swim in my clothes sans a pool and shorten my pants six or more inches, I might be able to shop in a plus-size store.

I have nothing against real plus-size women. Women of all shapes and sizes are beautiful and unique. However, it is beyond stupid that our culture labels women at a normal weight and average size as "chubby" or "plus-size" while women that are slightly larger than average are ostracized and viewed as barely human.

I am not at all surprised, however, that the original source then links to a story on "weight winners", as crowned by US Magazine. Let us all eat diets devoid of sugar, bread, and fat so we can be as miserable happy as starving beautiful Hayden!

109 comments:

dirtyrottenfeminist said...

Yeah, as I am a shameless America's Next Top Model fan and was on Team Whitney this season....and still consider myself a pretty hard-core feminist....(of course, I would never claim it's pro-feminist media...not like those GTA4 fans who say the game isn't sexist...)

I am still happy they managed to have an average sized woman in a Versace fashion show. Usually, they shame the hell out of the full-figured girls, giving them the ugliest, most maternal wardrobes for the photo shoots while the other girls prance around in scraps of clothing, showing off their toothpick-like limbs and caved in stomaches. What was really wonderful is the out of the final three, the other two were the skinniest girls of the season.... So while not exactly a victory, it's still a step in the right direction.

Kate said...

I agree. I definitely enjoy an America's Next Top Model marathon sometimes.

And while it is absurd to call a size-eight a "plus size," the fact that a size eight girl won is awesome. And as dirtyrottenfeminist said, a step in the right direction.

Ennui said...

I don't like the shameless hatred towards attractive women.

Feminists can swear all day long that they don't hate attractive/not overweight women, but then picking one out, and not-so-slyly, calling her "miserable and starving" isn't exactly productive.

News flash: You don't have to be "starving" to weigh an appropriate amount for your height.

Unless you think cutting out the daily Big Mac is "starving".

Just because as an entire country, there is a majority of overweight people in the US, doesn't make it healthy or "normal".

I also don't like how the term "curves" is bandied about. It's too often become synonymous with "fat". Same with voluptuous.

Marilyn Monroe, Scarlett Johansson = curves.

Camryn Manheim = fat, not curves.

Just because obesity has become common in the US, doesn't make obesity a good thing. Nor does it mean we need to enlarge all aspects of life to accommodate the obese.

Again, common =/= normal.

Again, it's especially troublesome that you go out of your way to insult people that aren't overweight, as if there's something wrong with not being overweight.

That's one thing that really seriously bothers me about the feminist quest for "accept fat people (well, accept fat women, I still see feminists insult fat males).

You want everyone to overlook every single unhealthy thing about obesity, just to make you feel better.

It also smacks of jealousy when you have to end an article with snarky comments at someone who isn't obese.

Lindsay said...

Where has anyone said that they hated attractive people?

You're missing the point of the post - that a size 8 is a "plus size model" while half of all women in the United States wear a size 14. It doesn't make logical sense for a model to be called plus size when she wears a smaller size than half the women in America.

(http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,409556-2,00.html)

Ennui said...

Where has anyone said that they hated attractive people?

The jabs at the end of the article, claiming that since Hayden is slender, that she must be "miserable, starving", and "denying food".

You're missing the point of the post - that a size 8 is a "plus size model" while half of all women in the United States wear a size 14.

Again, just because obesity has become common, doesn't make it normal.

I don't support enlarging the world to accommodate people that consume more calories than everyone else, just because they don't want to do anything about it.

The world is not here to coddle your feelings, you know?

Just because overweight women have become common, doesn't make it healthy, good, normal, or acceptable.

She's called a "plus-size" because based on body types, height, and weight, and what's considered a healthy or normal weight range, a size 10 is plus sized.

If the Big Mac slurping, sedentary American trend continues, and the average American woman is a size 20, will you complain if anything less than 25 is called "plus sized"?

Just because more people are increasing their caloric intake to ridiculous proportions, doesn't suddenly raise the bar for what should be considered overweight.

The standards for overweight don't change. Just because "overweight" has become the new "common" or "average", doesn't suddenly make that the "healthy weight", where anything over THAT, is now "overweight.

Amelia said...

Thanks to Ennui, I justed realized that I am fat, and it's all my fault, because obviously, I'm not doing anything about it!

Thanks for the enlightenment.

Lindsay said...

You're judging solely on size of clothing, not weight/height proportions. Making a blanket statement about obesity based on the size of clothing isn't useful because it doesn't take into account different body types.

Additionally, you can be a size 14 and still be healthy. If you live a healthy lifestyle, does it matter what size clothing you wear? I don't consider size 14 obese anyway; I think you need to re-evaluate what you consider obese.

Take a look at these photos:
http://flickr.com/photos/77367764@N00/
sets/72157602199008819/.
They show real women and their body mass index. It's interesting to see who falls under the categories of overweight and obese based on that.

Ennui said...

Thanks to Ennui, I justed realized that I am fat, and it's all my fault, because obviously, I'm not doing anything about it!


Lol, well, not to put too fine a point on it, it's not society's fault if someone consumes 6000 calories a day.

Additionally, you can be a size 14 and still be healthy. If you live a healthy lifestyle, does it matter what size clothing you wear? I don't consider size 14 obese anyway; I think you need to re-evaluate what you consider obese.

The theory of "healthy at any size" is bunk. I could dig up the article, but it was a few weeks ago at this point. It stated the idea that one can be overweight but still just as healthy as someone who isn't, was determined to be largely bullshit.

That even being a small amount overweight dramatically increases your risk of heart disease.

Naturally, you don't consider a 14 overweight anymore. You've been conditioned not to. When all you see, day in and day out in America, are overweight women, you start to accept "overweight" as "normal weight".

They show real women and their body mass index. It's interesting to see who falls under the categories of overweight and obese based on that.

Yeah, and from what I can see, such as "Heather is obese". Yes, she is. That's quite obese.

Most of the women marked overweight or obese, in fact, are.

For instance:

"5'4 1/2" 290 lbs. BMI 49".

Being almost 300 lbs at 5'4" is, in fact, morbidly obese.

BMI is not perfect, nor did I say it was. Regardless of that, I will not justify that it's okay to be obese. Will not. It's ridiculous to ask people to do so.

Because it's not okay. It's potential heart disease, diabetes, joint damage, clogged arteries, kidney failure, and a million other things, that will end up costing the taxpayers a lot of money.

It's not necessary to eat until stuffed at every meal.

Jen said...

Ennui-

The story I linked to discusses the "weight winners" diet secrets, one of which was no bread or sugar.

Ennui said...

The story I linked to discusses the "weight winners" diet secrets, one of which was no bread or sugar.

What does that have to do with insulting her, or making assumptions about her?

Also, what's wrong with cutting down sugar intake? And most modern white bread has tons of empty carbs, and not much of nutritional benefit.

Jen said...

Ennui-

You think obese is a size 14. Let me know when you get back to reality.

Ennui said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Ennui said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
dirtyrottenfeminist said...

I am a size fucking fourteen and I am damn happy with myself. Yes, I am technically overweight...but I exercise 4-5 times a week, I eat healthy about 70% of the time, but I am still...well...chunky.

Ennui can go fuck him/herself for all I care. Here's a thought: I try not to determine a person's worth by their size or over all physical attractiveness, but instead what comes out of their mouth (or keyboard).

And by my standards...Ennui = worthless.

Jen said...

Yeah, Ennui can totally tell from my profile picture that I'm a total dog. Uh, not.

Even if I was ugly and four hundred pounds, that doesn't mean the beauty ideal is fucked up.

It just so happens I'm a size 8, right in the middle of my weight class by height, and attractive. I mean, people don't pull out crosses and garlic and shit when I walk by.

Ennui's defense is always that I am ugly, or fat, or a misogynist.

My one and only defense is that Ennui has his/her head up his/her ass.

Ennui said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
dirtyrottenfeminist said...

Ennui, you are the one who is spewing sizeist hatred and saying that the readers of this blog, and for the matter, ALL feminists foster "...shameless hatred towards attractive women." I was merely pointing out I do not hate people for the looks, but rather their characters. And every word I have read by you, here and on Feministing, is just trolling, sexist bullshit posted with the intent of pissing people off. For that, I think you are worthless.

Ennui said...

Ennui, you are the one who is spewing sizeist hatred

That's one of the most ridiculous words I've ever heard.

It's not "hatred" to say that fat=unhealthy. It's, you know, medical fact.

and saying that the readers of this blog, and for the matter, ALL feminists foster "...shameless hatred towards attractive women."

Well, when someone takes a picture of an attractive young woman, and puts things on it such as "miserable, starving, food denying", it implies some serious anger towards them.

And every word I have read by you, here and on Feministing, is just trolling, sexist bullshit posted with the intent of pissing people off. For that, I think you are worthless.

Uh, see, funny thing: Just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean they hate women.

Also, I don't know what a "Feministing" is.

Also, as I told your contemporary, don't ever think you can divine my "intent". It's not your place to try, and you certainly cannot do so with any accuracy.

dirtyrottenfeminist said...

feminsting.com, ennui. Unless there are two trolls with the same name..

I can see this isn't going anywhere.

Ennui said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Sexy at any Size said...

LOL! YOu are quite right, it is ridiculous that a size 10 is considered plus size, it is as though that is the only way that they'll let a woman with actual womanly curves into an industry obsessed with size 0.

Jen said...

Sexy at Any Size-

When I'm feeling positive, I say they do it because they want the clothes to be more noticeable than the person wearing them. This is best accomplished by choosing a person that is as small as possible.

Also, the presence of fatty bits like boobs and butts (the horror) is too "risque" for mainstream modeling. I suppose their models have to be as thin as possible in order to avoid comparisons to porn. After all, the woman wearing the bikini isn't sleazy if she is flat, am I right?

The entire mentality behind every single aspect of the beauty ideal and industry is so incredibly non-sensible. When I finally figure out what I think they are trying to do I'm overcome with this intense feeling of pity. Exactly how the entire world could fall for the puppetearing of such absurd reasoning I have not a clue.

Ennui said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
liz said...

I know I've never posted a comment here before, but I'm going to have to defend ennui here.

This really got to me:
"...toothpick-like limbs and caved in stomaches..."

I'm naturally skinny, and I'm even trying to put on a few pounds. Why? Same reason some women try to lose weight. To be more attractive, fit clothes better, etc.

I won't get into the health thing, because that argument will never stop. What I'm saying is that if we feminists' point is fat acceptance, I can't jump on the boat because I don't want it to mean slender women aren't "real women"(you know, 'cause we don't have enough curves). The goal should be BODY acceptance; large or small, tall or short.

Coyote Skinhead said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Coyote Skinhead said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Coyote Skinhead said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Amelia said...

You are right, Liz. I think some of us tried to make the point that body acceptance is a good ideal.

Ennui has a way of making people say things they may not need/think out fully. But anyway, my opinion is body acceptance. All bodies.

Just wanted to clarify that for myself, because I read your comment, and you are correct.

Anonymous said...

Ennui,
I am 5 feet. I wear a size 12.
ZOMG I ISH FAHT!.
Ban me from society lest you catch my disease.

Leah said...

I found my way here from Feministing and I can't leave without joining the "battle of the bulge" so to speak.

Plus size is sizes 12+. If the largest this model gets is size 10, she should not be considered a plus size model. Unfortunately, she doesn't fit "normal" (and by "normal" I do mean "common") model sizes either.

What really gets me with all of this (as far as ANTM goes) is their specific height restrictions (you must be 5'7"+ or else you get picked on mercilessly for your height) because runway models are expected to be tall to get work, and yet sizes are all willy-nilly. Either stick to "standards" or challenge them but don't play around.

Ennui, if you plan to return and read this. I have news. THERE IS NO "NORMAL" It is entirely made up, so yes, we can change it at whim if society doth agree. One of the major purposes of feminism (to me, and I hope many of you agree) is to challenge normalcy, not argue to sustain it! Wake the fuck up.

And yes, you DO have to accommodate people. Large and small. They have a right to be as they are just as much as you have a right to be a raging asshole just as much as the blogger and other commenters have a right to tell you you're ignorant and delete your posts. Deal with it.

Thanks to dirtyrottenfeminist for the post and for being on top of modding :)

Coyote Skinhead said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Tayari Jones said...

I just want to point out how weirdly tiresome it is for women to always have to talk about who gets to be pretty, sexy, hot, or whatever. Letting plus sized (or faux-plus-sized) women into the club doesn't really challenge the idea that women are here to be pretty.

I love that Ani DiFranco lyric. "I'm not a pretty girl. It's not what I do ." It's such a brave thing to say, just changing the entire conversation about who looks good enough.

pedantic-e said...

Also here via feministing, and I've got to say that while you make a good point, the "as close to feminism as Hitler is to Gandhi" analogy leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. And the comment on the paparazzi photo of the (eighteen-year-old!) actress, who hardly looks like a walking skeleton, implying that she must be starving herself (because she's just not overweight?)... Let's just say that I don't think that's too close to feminism, either.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Funny. I posted instances of "skinny-hate" on this blog and it was:

Deleted.

That's okay. It's right on the front page for everyone to view.

Are you going to delete that entry? LOL

Coyote Skinhead said...

"Ennui,
I am 5 feet. I wear a size 12.
ZOMG I ISH FAHT!."

Call a spade a spade, I say.

MEG said...

I don't think overweight women should be marginalized or criticized as they often are - I struggle with my weight like the majority of Americans. Our culture just isn't set up to promote a healthy weight.

But I have to agree that we need to be very careful using the words "normal" and "average" as synonyms for "acceptable" or "healthy."

Obviously it's really difficult to condemn obesity and the factors in our society that encourage it without condemning the individuals themselves who suffer from the condition. But it's an effort we can't avoid just because it's an uncomfortable endeavor. If "average" becomes synonymous with "obese" (which is where America is quickly headed) then we'll all be a lot worse off as a society AND as individuals.

Liz M said...

Ennui, it's ironic that you claim a size 14 is overweight and also say Marilyn Monroe was "curvy, not fat." Marilyn Monroe fluctuated between a size 12 and 14. At one point she was even a 16. Care to change your mind now?

kane said...

Ennui: ...it's not society's fault if someone consumes 6000 calories a day.

Actually, have you ever considered that perhaps it is? In the US, government subsidies go largely to beef, pork, and poultry farming and very little is spent on vegetables (aside from corn, which is an entirely different concern). This is why a cheeseburger costs $.99 and a salad costs $5.99.

If you are poor by a loose definition in this country, which a great many are, what are you going to buy for lunch in between working two jobs? A burger that consists of fats, carbohydrates, calories and protein which satisfies the body quickly and efficiently, or an expensive salad plus other foods to satisfy the same "quick energy" needs?

This country is incredibly fast paced and many people usually don't have time to cook nutritious, complete meals, relying on fast food to fulfill their basic human need for sustenance.

Naturally, this is not to say that there aren't people who COULD make healthier choices and choose not to. But I think it's something to think about before making blanket statements as to why people on the whole are overweight.

Anonymous said...

Liz:
http://www.snopes.com/movies/actors/mmdress.asp

12 at the extreme of her weight, never 16.

A lot of the stuff ennui said is over the top, but resorting to deleting his and Coyote Skinhead's comments at the same time as bringing in an army of users from a sympathetic site doesn't really seem fair, does it? It's fine to disagree, but cutting off the other side of the argument and hiding criticism demonstrates cowardice, not confidence.

Ennui said...

Ennui, it's ironic that you claim a size 14 is overweight and also say Marilyn Monroe was "curvy, not fat." Marilyn Monroe fluctuated between a size 12 and 14. At one point she was even a 16. Care to change your mind now?

Common misconception, also incredibly common urban legend.

Also, consider that she was 5'5, and weighed 118 pounds.

That would not be, by any means, even modern ones, a size 16. Sorry.

For further reading:

http://www.snopes.com/movies/actors/mmdress.asp

Yes, I came prepared.

I knew that one would come up sooner or later.

Actually, have you ever considered that perhaps it is? In the US, government subsidies go largely to beef, pork, and poultry farming and very little is spent on vegetables (aside from corn, which is an entirely different concern). This is why a cheeseburger costs $.99 and a salad costs $5.99.

No, I don't buy the idea that people can do something without realizing it's bad.

Super Size Me, for instance. Eat McDonald's every day, not only do you gain weight, but you feel sluggish and lousy.

Eat salads, fish, and healthy foods every day, not only do you lose weight, but you feel better, sleep better, and have more energy.

Lindsay said...

People are aware that eating junk all the time isn't good for their health, but the point Kane was trying to make is that often it's less costly to buy junk food than healthy food, especially with lots of fast food restaurants offering dollar menus. Add in the convenience of already prepared meals/easy to prepare verses a healthy meal that might take a little longer, and people are going to pick junk over healthy food.

Plus with more people eating out on a regular basis than in prior generations, people cook at home less and may not know recipes or how to plan a well-rounded meal.

vixen-notatramp said...

Was going to pass this one by, but as the subject is near and ear to my heart, why the hell not jump in?

I am a size 10, sometimes 12 if the clothes are particularly unforgiving. I am 5'7 and weigh 165 pounds. According to the Almighty BMI Calculator, I am overweight by about .8, IIRC.

In fact, that same BMI Calculator recommends I weigh a full ten pounds less than my doctor recommends; ten pounds that could well land me in the hospital with malnutrition.

I had weight loss surgery last April; and speaking as a formerly fat woman, I can therefore say with great confidence that Ennui and coyote have no idea what they're talking about. I chose to get weight loss surgery because I was unhealthy, and getting unhealthier all the time. According to medical science, it was that or starve myself for the rest of my life; and I don't mean that hyperbolically, thank you. Because of my lovely genetic legacy, I could only lose weight eating next to nothing and exercising five times a week.

Now, maybe other people could do that, but me? Not so much.

So, yeah, I agree that fat does not always equal healthy. But then again, neither does 'skinny'. So... maybe I could postulate that health is not universal, and that it depends upon who it relates to?

That said: using hatred and stigmatization of fat women to justify criticizing the assumed hatred of thin women? Is kind of backwards and silly. I mean, really, guys. Glass houses and black cooking wares, and all that jazz.

Anonymous said...

No, I don't buy the idea that people can do something without realizing it's bad.

Except... she wasn't saying that at all. She was making the point that unhealthy food is generally much cheaper than organic, nutritious food.

So, for people who make little money, it would be financially smarter for them to buy generally unhealthy foods. Even if they did spend their money on healthier food, they definitely wouldn't be able to buy as much. And what about those who have to feed themselves plus others? Maybe their children?

I don't think you can blame someone for making the choice to buy unhealthier foods if they are low on cash.

Ennui said...

People are aware that eating junk all the time isn't good for their health, but the point Kane was trying to make is that often it's less costly to buy junk food than healthy food, especially with lots of fast food restaurants offering dollar menus. Add in the convenience of already prepared meals/easy to prepare verses a healthy meal that might take a little longer, and people are going to pick junk over healthy food.

You only get one body, and one life. Of all the things that it would be justified to spend a little more on, I'd go for that one.

There are always aspects of your life you can shift money from, to put it there.

Plus with more people eating out on a regular basis than in prior generations, people cook at home less and may not know recipes or how to plan a well-rounded meal.

I hardly ever eat at home, yet I know how to cook, and it's one of the skills I have that I pride myself on.

Even still, there is a local chain of grocery stores here, in their deli, they offer many healthy pre-made meals. You can get various fresh sushi, exquisite salads, and other things.

There's also places like Whole Foods, that offer the same, and in an even healthier way.

They do this, and maintain an affordable option.

For the price of a value meal at a burger joint, I can instead get a tray of fantastic sushi for lunch, and not only be just as satisfied, but put much better things into my body than greasy burgers and oily fries.

So, yeah, I agree that fat does not always equal healthy. But then again, neither does 'skinny'. So... maybe I could postulate that health is not universal, and that it depends upon who it relates to?

That's a bad argument. In general, two people with the exact same degree of activity, and similar lifestles, one slender, and one fat, the slender one will always be healthier.

Except... she wasn't saying that at all. She was making the point that unhealthy food is generally much cheaper than organic, nutritious food.

It's still a conscious decision to take the garbage over the good stuff.

So, for people who make little money, it would be financially smarter for them to buy generally unhealthy foods. Even if they did spend their money on healthier food, they definitely wouldn't be able to buy as much. And what about those who have to feed themselves plus others? Maybe their children?

Not really. Take into account the quality of your life when you cram unhealthy garbage into yourself. You have less energy, you sleep badly, you have less endurance, you're more sluggish...

Everything you do on a daily basis is improved by a healthy diet. It's worth any extra expense.

Also, honestly, if you have children, and you can only afford McDonald's...you shouldn't have had children.

Children (and this is coming from someone who hates them) need a better example than Big Macs and pizza.

We didn't have a lot of money when I was growing up, especially after my father died, but my mother would be damned if she resorted to feeding us bullshit every night. Without fail, every night we had a proper meal, whether we wanted it or not.

Even if it meant she had to eat less to make sure we had proper food.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Coyote Skinhead said...

Seriously.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments.

I don't give a damn if it's your blog.

As long as I am here, I am a guest in your home.

I find it very rude how you delete my comments, no matter what they say, and then try to make me look bad by saying something like "Coyote, that was very offensive and insulting." even if I hadn't even said anything insulting!

This isn't about feminism anymore, or about rights.

It's about how you have treated Ennui and myself as guests in your house, so to speak.

If this is how you treat men who come into your world... do you ever expect to be taken seriously or have your "issues" coddled and fixed by men?

I am calling you out right now. Why is it okay for people to threaten us with violence, and call us names, but we're not even allowed to be "patronizing" without being chastised?

Tell me now, I really want to know. Don't avoid the issue. Answer it.

Anonymous said...

Coyote Skinhead, as a guest you have no right to come into someone's personal space and pollute it with spam, nor do you have any right to not be silenced in someone's personal space. Ennui is already a known troll from Feministing and you have more than proven that you don't deserve the privilege of commenting here either.

goat dancing said...

I'm disgusted by those who regard bigger people as slobs who should be scorned for their lack of self control. I'm quite convinced that the propensity to gain weight and eat more is not pure choice, and rather is a combined product of genetics, environment, and lifestyle. But let's assume that they are fat because they simply "choose" not to exert control. Should they then be considered gross and immoral? NO. The only person they could potentially be harming is themselves. And I find it completely reasonable to request that people to then judge you based solely on your looks.
And by the way- for those who may propose that I'm making excuses for myself- I am an individual who would be considered "underweight" by the BMI, and I did not choose to be this way. I don't try to restrict the amount I eat, I just have a different metabolism, and a different appetite. Should I be admonished for not exerting proper self control and not eating enough?
And I'm a feminist. I must hate myself for being thin?

Anonymous said...

It's just wrong to make fun of Hayden's weight as it is to make fun of ANYONE'S weight. Shame on you, you big hypocrite.

neutal said...

Coyote Skinhead, you really consider yourself a guest in her home, posting the same comment 20 times in a row is the equivalent to pulling down your pants and peeing on her sofa. You're not helping your case, you're demonstrating you're incapable of carrying on a rational discussion.

Anonymous above - just because you want to label someone a troll in order to discredit them doesn't mean they actually are. As long as they're being reasonably respectful and arguing about the issues instead of making personal attacks, you can't really attack them. People aren't trolls just because they disagree with the majority opinion on the site. Being a regular on Feministing, surrounded by very like-minded people, tends to give people a very insular perspective that doesn't react well to opposing views.

Ennui said...

nor do you have any right to not be silenced in someone's personal space.

The internet is a public space. Putting things on it and making them public, stops it from being a personal, private space.

Ennui is already a known troll from Feministing

Again, as already stated, I don't know what a Feministing is.

The only person they could potentially be harming is themselves.

Actually, as I pointed out earlier: When they consume more, more animals have to be used for them, more land for crops, more land for what the animals graze, more fuel to transport the food, and ultimately, more tax dollars for their healthcare.

It has fairly far-reaching impact.

Also, if you wanted to split hairs, heart disease is (last time I checked) the number one cause of death in this country. If you have friends, relatives, any sort of family, when you die, you place a burden on those people. Especially when you die early.

KendallMcK said...

I was watching this last night and the one thing I kept thinking was "who, exactly, is she going to model for?" Because she sure as shit ain't "plus-size" which I believe equals a size 14 and up. And as much as I wish things were different, no mainstream modeling agency or designer is going to be able to use her. Clothes are designed and sent out to magazines to be photographed in teeny tiny sizes or plus sizes, depending on the audience. Dior is not making size 8s for advertising.

Which gave me yet another reason to hate the fashion industry - there's no place for the average woman. If you're a size 00 and pretty, you can model, and if you're a size 14 and pretty, you can model. Everyone in between is fucked. Hell, I'm a size 0 as it is but nowhere near a stick, and I guarantee I'd be told to lose 10 or 20 pounds if I traipsed into a modeling agency looking for work.

My mom had this brilliant insight though: "oh, whatever. The next time you see her, Whitney will have dropped 30 pounds." Probably true, ma.

Coyote Skinhead said...

"Coyote Skinhead, as a guest you have no right to come into someone's personal space and pollute it with spam, nor do you have any right to not be silenced in someone's personal space. Ennui is already a known troll from Feministing and you have more than proven that you don't deserve the privilege of commenting here either."

"Coyote Skinhead, you really consider yourself a guest in her home, posting the same comment 20 times in a row is the equivalent to pulling down your pants and peeing on her sofa. You're not helping your case, you're demonstrating you're incapable of carrying on a rational discussion."

No one, what-so-ever, has the right to treat me unfairly at any time or any place. Ennui and myself were threatened with violence, insulted, called names, and offensive statements were said to us. None of those comments were deleted, however, our comments were deleted for being "patronizing". The is unfair.

And no one has the right to treat me unfairly, and no one has the right to silence my voice when I speak out against being treated unfairly.

Yes. If I'm in your house, and you treat me with such disrespect, I guess I will pee on your sofa.

Don't like it? Then treat me with respect.

It's wholly stupid, and irrational, to think that you can insult someone and treat them unfairly and they won't do anything about it. Hey, isn't that what feminism is about?

Such hypocrisy.

Amelia said...

Look, I posted your comment, Coyote, even though the way you have treated the comment threads on this blog has been no kinder than the treatment you have gotten in return.

It was incredibly disrespectful to spam our blog, so really, since you have not offered an apology for that unbelievably rude offense, you should feel lucky to be allowed to comment here.

The Spartan said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Angry Grrl said...

One of the many sad things about this -- not the least of which is a screwed-up modeling world that considers sizes 8 and 10 to be "plus size" -- is the fact that even orgs like the Feminist Majority Foundation get in on the act of shaming plus-size women. Just try finding some of their cute activist-wear (This is what a feminist looks like! PS - no fat chicks) in larger sizes.

Llencelyn said...

I'm a bit late to the thread, but to anyone (mostly the trolls) who's saying fat is unhealthy, or who doesn't know how to respond to that, check out this post by Kate Harding at Shapely Prose.

Fat myths debunked! Also Kate Harding has snark down to a fine art. ^_^

Amelia said...

Deleted Spartan's comment because I felt it was full of unnecessary hostility. Which I don't want to be part of the comment threads here.

Feel free, Spartan, to rewrite your comment and re-submit it. Possibly without calling names.

Thanks. :)

Ennui said...

I'm a bit late to the thread, but to anyone (mostly the trolls) who's saying fat is unhealthy, or who doesn't know how to respond to that, check out this post by Kate Harding at Shapely Prose.

Fat myths debunked! Also Kate Harding has snark down to a fine art. ^_^


Actually, recent news stories have shown that those "fat myths debunked", have in fact, been debunked.

Fat is unhealthy. Even a slight bit of extra weight puts you in danger of diabetes, kidney problems, heart diseases, damaged joints, etcetera.

The people advocating "healthy at any size" or "You can be fat and healthy" are generally, you know, wrong.

Besides which, I trust the word of medical professionals such as doctors, over an overweight woman blogging for "fat acceptance", on issues of health and weight.

Naturally, someone who is overweight is going to spend time and energy getting everyone to believe that fat isn't unhealthy, as it's less work than losing weight.

Also, the "diets don't work" line, is well, garbage.

Diets work fine. It's the people doing them, that don't understand that a change in diet is meant to be a PERMANENT change in diet. Not diet til you lose weight, then go back to sucking down extra large milkshakes and triple cheeseburgers.

Point is, you cannot debate the nature of it. Fat is unhealthy. Period.

Deny that, and you deny medical fact, agreed upon by thousands upon thousands upon further thousands of medical professionals.

Llencelyn said...

"Deny that, and you deny medical fact, agreed upon by thousands upon thousands upon further thousands of medical professionals."

That's just the thing. The medical community does not agree. As you'd know if you'd bothered to follow up on any of her sources.

But why am I feeding a troll? Liked the blog, but I'm not gonna follow this thread anymore. Ennui is ennuyeux.

Kate said...

I'm glad you enjoyed our blog, llenclyn, and I hope you continue to read despite some of the less friendly comments.

Ennui said...

That's just the thing. The medical community does not agree. As you'd know if you'd bothered to follow up on any of her sources.

But why am I feeding a troll? Liked the blog, but I'm not gonna follow this thread anymore. Ennui is ennuyeux.


Like I said, you can deny it, but you come off sounding like tobacco companies claiming that they had no idea that smoking caused health problems.

If you take two people of similar lifestyles, be it sedentary or active; one thin, one fat, the fat one will *always* be less healthy.

For instance, I just came from the store. In this store, was a woman so obese that she was riding around in a motorized cart, and only standing up to occasionally look at a shelf.

Now, are you telling me there's nothing wrong with that, that medical science is wrong, and that she's totally healthy?

Point is, being overweight is not healthy. There's no way to argue that fact. When you do, you just sound ridiculous.

Obesity is cardiovascular disease, lack of energy, shortness of breath, kidney problems, diabetes, damage to the joints, and more.

There is no need to eat until absolutely stuffed with every meal. Many fat people claim that they just "gain weight" and they "can't help it", and that all they do is "eat until they're full".

Well, funny thing, if you eat until stuffed at every meal, eventually your stomach expands, and requires more food to become full, and repeat this, and you get fat.

There is nothing healthy about obesity.

Amelia said...

See, the problem I see with calling her a plus-size model is that it puts too much emphasize on the label. It takes away from the woman. Who cares what size she wears? Who cares what "label" she has? She is obviously good at what she does - she won this competition. People are focusing too much on what to call her, not on what she has accomplished.

Also, this might be better suited for the other thread, but promoting "fat acceptance" is not the same, for me anyway, as saying that fat = healthy. I do not actually know very many specifics about what certain medical experts, whathaveyou, consider "healthy" as far as body weight, BMI, go.

Fat acceptance for me is the same as saying I am not going to assume that because someone weighs more than me, they are lazy, they are stupid, they are unhealthy. Because I don't know these things.

It's all about judgment calls for me. I try very hard not to judge anyone based solely on their appearance.

Jen said...

I agree totally Amelia. I really hate that this thread has gotten hijacked into a discussion about the health of fat verses skinny.

In the end, I really don't care. I'm not a doctor, and I don't think anyone here is either. Nobody has the right to be treated subhuman in pubic, denied equal pay, and demonized and mocked because of their appearance.

Fat Acceptance isn't about the claim that fat is better than skinny, or the denial that obesity is unhealthy. It merely says, "hey, you don't have the right to be a discriminatory asshole, the Fat Police, or Dr. John Doe because fat people dare to exist around you."

Ennui said...

Fat Acceptance isn't about the claim that fat is better than skinny, or the denial that obesity is unhealthy. It merely says, "hey, you don't have the right to be a discriminatory asshole, the Fat Police, or Dr. John Doe because fat people dare to exist around you."

No, it's about fat people refusing to do anything but be fat, and demand that everyone accommodate them for it.

Anonymous said...

yeah that's just "entitlement" and it's selfish and won't get a person anywhere in life.

davekion said...

Thanks...

Dave Kion
Article

AusrineAurora said...

”Lol, well, not to put too fine a point on it, it's not society's fault if someone consumes 6000 calories a day.”

Personally I have always believed that ever action has a reaction despite it being a “good” or “bad” action.

Many people do not consider the results of there actions, they talk without concern of who may be listening; it is important to remember that we live in a society of mixed races, genders, weight ranges, emotional structure and religious backgrounds’.

So, In a way, it is societies fault; the typical TV boast-about behaviour we see corrupts and affects many people in a variety of ways. When we see images of apparent-perfection it is a natural human instinct to evaluate ones self-worth, and by doing so we can further the damage done to our spirit.
This can result in: Psychology Disorders (I.e. Depression)
Most things in life will require you keep a healthy attitude, so naturally if you feel worthless then ultimately your day-to-day life will reflect the way you feel.
This is where the surrounding society does not help!
On another note;
It is important to remember that the Body Mass Index is only a guide, it doesn’t take things like muscle mass, fat distribution or metabolism into consideration.

Now, eating a healthy, balanced diet is GREAT, there’s nothing wrong with eating right or exercising. But! I would not go so far as to say or even suggest that ‘fat’ alone in large or small quantities is significantly unhealthy. Fat has its purposes just like every-other natural human substance.

I haven’t had the chance to read every-single comment, so I will assume this has been said - but I will say it again.

I cannot emphasize this enough; EVERYBODY, regardless of age, sex, weight, colour or creed deserves kindness and respect, we are all human; our spirit can be very fragile one wrong word in the wrong place could tip someone over the edge and push them toward a degenerate state-of-mind.

Always be mindful of a persons feelings and consider the results of all your actions.

And yes, I realise how old this thread is, I'm a cherry picker for blog/statements :P

HealthyEater said...

"Let us all eat diets devoid of sugar, bread, and fat so we can be as miserable happy as starving beautiful Hayden!"

I wish I had seen this a year ago. I will not explain the intricacies of the hormonal response of the human body. You can go look that up on your own. I will, however, say that yes, you should curb your intake of sugar and bread. These two carbohydrates are the worst type of carbohydrates you can consume, devoid of any nutritional value, and capable only of stimulating pleasure receptors in your brain and ultimately leading you towards developing diabetes. Fat, on the other hand, is good for you, provided to stay away from the saturated kind.

And quit it with the bullshit about the ideal weight for a woman. The ideal weight for anyone is a complete and utter lack of EXCESS.

Anonymous said...

Ennui,
my name is angela. I am 13 years old, 5'5, and 157 lbs. it is not my fault I am considered fat or overweight. as I was growing up my family would feed me certain foods that were not the right choices for my body. it is very hard to resist from something you grew up with just with a snap oof a finger. last year I became a vegetarian and this helped me with my bmi control. people have certain problems with their body; for example my body is unable to process juices or trans fat and use it for energy. I found out this is true to 60% of women, although almost 40% of them do not know of this yet. maybe people have a defect like this. or maybe they just have a low metabolism and their body doesn't respond to dieting and excercise as quickly as others do, such as models.
another thing. I would just like to clear things up for u. the reason why we say the models are starving themselves are because they look like the weight of themselves do not seem to match their height which would create a healthy bmi. if they looked healthy yet slim, they would probably have muscle, but there is none u can see. too achieve looking this thin without excercise or muscle mass would have to be starving yourself, or eating very little. THIS is what hurts us most: having to starve ourselves just to look like the everyday model, to be recognized as 'healthy, slim, sexy' which is why we are against looking like that, so that we can push in to society that this is unhealthy.
what's wrong with a size 8 girl? maybe she has a lot of muscle mass, big bones? maybe she's 6 feet? you can't judge a girl by a size, let alone knowing what she looks like..